Thats what it's all about..for Michael - Page 3

Gt_R · 21 Jun 2001, 14:07 (Ref:107893)

OKay..i said i shall not participate in this topic any further...but i think its okay for me to say that the post neutral made is interesting for reading...nice writing there...nevermind the moral of the story~

makes Tazio seem alive and kicking~

angst · 21 Jun 2001, 14:33 (Ref:107906)

Sorry about carrying on with this, but since when has TGF been punished for his indiscretions. He gained a WDC in '94, and was stripped of second in the WDC in '97. Jeez, the man must be gutted

The only reason I made any comment on this is because he is trying to excuse himself from responsibility because others (Senna, Prost) were playing similar, stupid games. The responsibility for his actions are his and his alone, and yet all he can do is rationalise his lack of sportsmanship and ethics as 'part of the game'.

And now there are some here who would have me applaud him for his 'honesty' (which to my mind isn't the act of admitting to something so obvious that you can't deny it) and not even be in any way sorry about his actions.

One question. If TGF were taken out in the last race by his nearest rival in the WDC and lost it to this other driver what do you think his reaction to this would be? And what would you TGF fans make of it?
Think honestly on this.

Liz · 21 Jun 2001, 15:58 (Ref:107928)

There on the 1993 Highlights Video is TGF screaming that Senna should be banned for doing what now TGF says is "what you have to do to win."

My mother always told me that "everybody else does" is not a defence.

The only thing I can find of marginal interest in this whole mess is that finally TGF has admitted that he has been lying all these years about what he did, that he did in fact deliberately try to injure or perhaps kill his rivals for the championship, and that he believes this is not only acceptable behaviour but necessary. Had he succeeded in killing Jacques but winning the championship, I wonder if he would have sent flowers to the funeral?

Which makes me believe that the ideal Ferrari/McLaren pilot would be Tony Soprano.

drexel · 21 Jun 2001, 16:03 (Ref:107932)

Something similar i think Angst, was the incident with DC in the rain which played a large part in wrecking his championship. The one where DC decided to lift off the gas coming round the corner, after holding him up for a while, (whilst being lapped) in the pouring rain. We saw there how MS reacted. DC escaped punishment probably coz his stupidity endangered himself aswell as MS.

If it were to happen, he would be upset, the fans would be upset and it would be up to the ruling body to give a decision. Just like in 94 and 97. Besides, MS is not asking for forgiveness and neither are his fans. It doesn't matter because even if he said sorry ppl aren't going to change their opinions and nor should they.

drexel · 21 Jun 2001, 16:08 (Ref:107935)

Well it wasn't Alesi and it wont be most of the other apathetic drivers out there.

neutral · 21 Jun 2001, 16:20 (Ref:107937)

The other day I was watching the Bruce Lee story, and the last lines went something like this...

Quote:

Many people like to remember Bruce Lee for the way he died, I like to remember Bruce for the way he lived

I think the same should go for Michael. People should look at his career as a whole, and judge him over his 150 races, rather than focussing on a single point in time.

angst · 21 Jun 2001, 17:09 (Ref:107956)

Adelaide '94, Jerez '97, Spa '98 (where he accused Coulthard of trying to kill him after crashing into the back of his car), his admonishment of Frentzen for saying Ferrari were using some form of traction control (or traction enhancement

), and his suggestion that Frentzen should be taken to task for bringing the sport into disrepute because of this (which turned out to be true). His complete denial that Ferrari have been using any form of traction whatever, his demands of complete number 1 status...... on and on I could go. Looking at his career as a whole leaves a pretty unsavoury taste, with some fine drives mixed in there.

Liz · 21 Jun 2001, 19:55 (Ref:108027)

Telemetry showed that DC did NOT lift off and "cause" TGF to ram the back of his car at Spa - believe it or not, it was a stupid mistake by TGF WHO WAS SHOWING OFF...with a significant lead already in hand and the race as good as won, he himself ploughed it and then tried hysterically and unsucessfully to blame it on everyone else. As usual.

This old stock car drivers' technique of getting your version of the story before the public first, so people will believe you in spite of the truth, no longer works when everything can be documented. It's as stupid as making a death threat on television and then saying you were misquoted. (Prost did that.)

What I can't understand is why he would bother to lie when he must know that eventually he will have to tell the truth anyway?

Daisy the cow · 21 Jun 2001, 21:04 (Ref:108045)

IMO TGF is better now than ever, because he's got rid of his brainless attacking style and no longer punts off drivers. The Ferrari is so fast and handles so bloody well he can put genuine moves on people that will stick. He seems more focussed now on racing than ever before.

That's my two cents (GST not included)

Valve Bounce · 21 Jun 2001, 22:58 (Ref:108075)

Quote:

Originally posted by Liz

Which makes me believe that the ideal Ferrari/McLaren pilot would be Tony Soprano.

Hey Liz!!!! My favourite show. It comes on very late here, so I tape it, and we watch it the next morning, zipping through the many long advertisements. Isn't it really cool? Especially the way they treated the Russian who beat up his sister? Stuck the guy under a sleigh.

I wonder if he got his LP records back for Janice.

Run Free · 21 Jun 2001, 23:00 (Ref:108076)

Quote:

Originally posted by Gt_R

But hey...he was disqualified for the whole season. He did wrong, he had his punishment...so lets get on with it...

What are you writing??? He wasn't disqualified for the whole season. He didn't miss any race. He was simply cancelled from the final classification, but mantained all the wins and the points of the season.
This was the most ridiculous FIA's decision ever, and for sure wasn't a punishment!

Minardi fan · 21 Jun 2001, 23:46 (Ref:108102)

Quote:

Originally posted by angst
Adelaide '94, Jerez '97, Spa '98 (where he accused Coulthard of trying to kill him after crashing into the back of his car), his admonishment of Frentzen for saying Ferrari were using some form of traction control (or traction enhancement ), and his suggestion that Frentzen should be taken to task for bringing the sport into disrepute because of this (which turned out to be true). His complete denial that Ferrari have been using any form of traction whatever, his demands of complete number 1 status...... on and on I could go. Looking at his career as a whole leaves a pretty unsavoury taste, with some fine drives mixed in there.

I can't really put it any better than Angst already has. As good a driver Schumacher is, I cannot fully respect a man who would cheat to win - even if he later admits to it in some way.

And besides - Schumacher, the best driver in F1? Don't make me laugh...

**Peter Mallett** · 22 Jun 2001, 02:37 (Ref:108136)

First of all, may I congratulate Neutral on an entertaining post. Not only entertaining but for me it highlighted what we are really saying here. That is that even if it's morally wrong, the financial and commercial reasons for "cheating" over ride honesty and integrity.

Surely then we should all walk away from this "sport" and leave it to the moneymen.

But no we don't do that because every so often we get someone honest and courageous enough to stand up and be counted in actions rather than words. Both, Hill and JV did it in their own way.

Again though I find it necessary to repeat what I said earlier. Motorsport is dangerous. To deliberately (and not through error) make it more dangerous is stupid beyond belief.

And to assume that because a car is travelling relatively slowly it is not very dangerous to "nerf" it, is to demonstrate a complete lack of imagination. Even if no injuries result, the possibility was still there. Imagine what would have resulted if (at Jerez) JV's wheels had ridden over the Ferrari's and tipped him upside down into the gravel. But maybe that's just a leap too far for blind passion.

drexel · 22 Jun 2001, 06:15 (Ref:108149)

Quote:

Which makes me believe that the ideal Ferrari/McLaren pilot would be Tony Soprano.

Quote:

Hey Liz!!!! My favourite show. It comes on very late here, so I tape it, and we watch it the next morning.

Hey Valve it's my favorite show aswell. I also just realised why i see Michael differently to alot of ppl. To me, Michael IS Tony Soprano. Thats why i see F1 the way i do. I believe its a sport, a competition, the modern theatre of war, with its own set of rules and it's own governing body. And above all, entertainment and everyone's just a character in its epic story.

As far as i'm concerned it's up to the ppl inside F1 to morally and ethically judge themselves, and not me. I am a Michael fan because to me, he is the centerpiece of F1 through his sheer will alone. One day he will most likely fall down, because most ppl who constantly push the boundarys like he does will eventually fail. But at least i get to see 'everything' he has to offer, unlike most of the others out there.

I guess some ppl look for role models and Saints. And thats why ppl wish Michael dead, or say JPM is disrespecting a marshall's family when he has an arguement. Or DC and Eddie are bad ppl coz they date a lot of women.

**Peter Mallett** · 22 Jun 2001, 09:21 (Ref:108179)

Quote:

Originally posted by angst
Sorry about carrying on with this, but since when has TGF been punished for his indiscretions. He gained a WDC in '94, and was stripped of second in the WDC in '97. Jeez, the man must be gutted

The only reason I made any comment on this is because he is trying to excuse himself from responsibility because others (Senna, Prost) were playing similar, stupid games. The responsibility for his actions are his and his alone, and yet all he can do is rationalise his lack of sportsmanship and ethics as 'part of the game'.

And now there are some here who would have me applaud him for his 'honesty' (which to my mind isn't the act of admitting to something so obvious that you can't deny it) and not even be in any way sorry about his actions.

One question. If TGF were taken out in the last race by his nearest rival in the WDC and lost it to this other driver what do you think his reaction to this would be? And what would you TGF fans make of it?
Think honestly on this.

Um. I think it was me who said "I applaud his honesty" but I also said it was a bit late. I still think he's a good driver but I'll never respect him because of these actions.

My main worry from this conversation though stems from the minority who think its the right thing to do. How could anybody say that putting someone's life in unnecessary danger (for indeed that's what it is) is right just to win a peice of tin!!!!

Run Free · 22 Jun 2001, 10:56 (Ref:108202)

Quote:

Originally posted by Minardi fan

I can't really put it any better than Angst already has. As good a driver Schumacher is, I cannot fully respect a man who would cheat to win - even if he later admits to it in some way.

And besides - Schumacher, the best driver in F1? Don't make me laugh...

Exactly, MF, what I think too.

TGF has NEVER proved himself, has EVER had winning cars and a number one status. And most of his results are due to cheating and/or team work, and have NOTHING to part with skill.
He's not the best driver, has never been, will never be. He's a built character much more that a racer and/or a champion. He's the perfect expression of present F1, a show business that has nothing to part with sport.

Wrex · 22 Jun 2001, 10:59 (Ref:108204)

Quote:

Originally posted by Run Free
He's not the best driver, has never been, will never be.

OK I'll play along - who is? I'm dying to know.

Run Free · 22 Jun 2001, 11:02 (Ref:108206)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

My main worry from this conversation though stems from the minority who think its the right thing to do. How could anybody say that putting someone's life in unnecessary danger (for indeed that's what it is) is right just to win a peice of tin!!!!

I feel the same worry, Peter. There are ppl here saying that is correct, or at least a minor "mistake", to break rules and, specifically, to put someone's life in danger to "win".
That's a very dangerous "philosophy"...

Airhead · 22 Jun 2001, 11:04 (Ref:108207)

Wrex,

You were gunna give up on this three pages ago. You know, peace and love and lets forgive and forget. Michael's an A hole but lets keep his brilliance in perspective.

Face it baby,

The sucks almost as hard as his brother. Hard call I know, but someone's gotta make it!

**Peter Mallett** · 22 Jun 2001, 11:04 (Ref:108209)

Quote:

Originally posted by Wrex
OK I'll play along - who is? I'm dying to know.

I think the point may be that these indescretions(?) have tarnished his career in the eyes of some including me. However he is the best of his era.

Don't think we should start to compare him with previous drivers because that just wouldn't be valid.

Wrex · 22 Jun 2001, 11:09 (Ref:108212)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
I think the point may be that these indescretions(?) have tarnished his career in the eyes of some including me. However he is the best of his era.

I agree totally Peter, My question was to Ms Run Free, obviously she feels differently, well.....?

Don K · 22 Jun 2001, 15:31 (Ref:108296)

Quote:

Originally posted by Run Free
TGF has NEVER proved himself, has EVER had winning cars and a number one status.

I don't think the Jordan and Benneton of '91 and '92 were winning cars.

And when he went to Ferrari, three other teams (Benneton, Williams, and McLaren) were faster.

Tristan · 22 Jun 2001, 17:49 (Ref:108336)

Notice how I've stayed wel clear of this topic?? You know my views about it all. I'm NOT having this row again.

EERO · 22 Jun 2001, 20:19 (Ref:108392)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

I think the point may be that these indescretions(?) have tarnished his career in the eyes of some including me. However he is the best of his era.

Mallet, I really do admire your ability to say it succinctly. You are the master and I applaud you. No one could have said it better.

**Bononi** · 22 Jun 2001, 22:16 (Ref:108423)

Ditto !!!!

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