Getting experience with a Reynard 883

[tristancliffe]

Indeed. The metal beneath can crack, yet the coating may not. This is a bad thing, as the metal is the important bit. Painting is slightly better (it is far more likely to crack when the metal underneath bends/cracks). The best thing is a very thin metallic coating - such as, but not limited to, passivated zinc - that will almost without doubt crack when the base metal cracks. Chrome plating is quite a thick hard coating, so may or may not crack, but the big issue is hydrogen embrittlement. Thus you have to do further heat treatments to reduce this embrittlement before they are safe to use, but the vast majority of people don't do that last important stage, and just want shiny bits - they are wrong to do so.

I'm shocked that so many 'engineers' (I mean no offence by the apostrophies, it's just that engineer is a very wide term, and I mean the word to encompass all of those meanings) are happy to powder coat such a critical component. If I bought powder coated wishbones the first thing I'd do is remove the coating.

[mrsweety]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Hatchbacks are cheaper to buy, but then you have the costs of making it race ready, and the end cost is probably about the same that a cheap single seater (e.g. an 883).

Chap, it's all cheap when it's dad's car and you live at home right ;-)

Out of interest why did they coat pre carbon F1 wishbones/?

F3 car V Cheap Hatch is cheaper to buy/run? I wish! :-)

[tristancliffe]

I pay towards the car (hell, my Dad bought it when I was at Uni, but since I've been back I've paid for nearly everything), and I pay rent at home I would rent elsewhere, but I'm not a mug! Damn propery ladders, the bottom rung is so high!

At F1 -> Maybe because they changed them every race? I very much doubt it was powder coating anyway, it weighs too much for F1.

At F3 being cheaper, if you ever want to compare budgets let me know. I'd wager that mine is very close to yours (assuming you bought a decent car that is in a raceable condition and roughly as quick, although without slicks and wings I know it'll be a different sort of quick).

[Lola]

Let me know where I can get some of these 100 pound sets of wishbones....

[driftwood]

1 TC i have raced 100 cc karts when i was 18-21 with top spec engine for my class at regional level racing on average fortnightly
that was cheaper than me racing in classic historic saloons ( where i chased the national series and won) with the top spec engine for my class
that was cheaper than my 6 race 6 test race hire FF1600 programme
which was cheaper than me running my historic f2 car
the engine rebuild alone was more than all my previous years motrsport rolleed into 1 lump sum! ) and i ran the F2 car on used tyres never crashed or had ANY dramas
running my F3 car is cheaper than the f2 car but a lot more than the karting or saloon road /race car
2 wishbone coating
all march lola chevron ralt cars had nickle plated wishbone components
reynard went for key fossing parker lubing later
I used the word pweder coating to acyually mean any coating the cost is not drastic difference across the formats my point was to make 2 wishbones for £100 is only possible with 1 a man in his domestic shed not commercial rates
my father can re build my house for half the proffessional builder quoted but then he is now a semi reitered builder with no staff to employ mortgage to pay office rent to cover or fleet of vans to maintain

i know what parts cost to make ive been doing it for years and as Lola said show me bones for £100 pair
gear ratios are £88 plus vat new dog rings same and they are an every day consumable
engine oil is £20-30 a gallon
decent brake fluid is £15-20 litre
im afraid proper race cars are not cheap beasts to run just cos u have an 88 f3 car at say £8k to buy doesnt mean everything is cheap associated to the car
these cars today cos £50k ish to build
the latest dallara is 50k plus dash dampers less motor unpainted
its all relative
in 1972 a lola or chevron Gp 6 car was £3-4k as a roller same cost as decent house
that house in 1972 at £3k is now £300k
the current SR1- 2 car that is the 2006 equivelant of Group 6 car is 2-300k as a roller
In reality many things dont change they just appear to be different/cheaper
entry fees have risen above the index link /rate of inflation that can be applied as has fuel

all i can say is get yr racing done before u get hooked up with wife 2 kids mortgage get it out of yr system do the other things and come back to motorsport later

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by driftwood

the latest dallara is 50k plus dash dampers less motor unpainted

That's the 1998 list price!

[driftwood]

no that was 37k
tub was 12k then now 18 for bare chassis
but to u my boy i can do you a liccle deal

[tristancliffe]

Okay, fair enough. Your prices for other stuff are about right. As for the powder coating - powder coating is a rather more specific coating, usual a plastic powder that forms a homogenous layer on a component under heat. Nickle plating (which would be acceptable) is not powder coating. It is a plating technique, done either via a dip (not so good) or electrolysis (much better). If you are going to use terms to describe engineering procedures, especially as you claim to make these things on a commercial basis, then it's best to be clear.

As for some other stuff, I disagree. Dog rings are not, or should not be, an every day consumable. A good gear change (which I'm not claiming I do everytime) should not wear the dog rings. Then comparing a modern racing car to an older one isn't a fair comparison either. These cars DID cost less relatively than modern ones. Budgets have grown far faster than inflation. In 1988 I would imagine a whole season on reasonably competative F3 with a two car team could be had for a price not much more than a single car these days, although of course the value of money was considerably different. Even so, in real value terms (i.e. adjusted for inflation) budgets have risen, as has the cost of parts as higher tolerences are used. Something like this 883, which is well known now, is surprising cheap to maintain. You speak to someone who owns quite a number of classic cars, and I'm sure some of you will have unknowingly seen our cars in magazines and books. I'm well aware of the cost os labour, materials and procedures. Thus I am not referring to modern single seaters. And I'm well aware karting is way cheaper, but whilst I enjoy karting it's quite a different ball game, and not one I'm especially interested in following quite at this time. Maybe in a few years (perhaps when wives and kids appear on the scene) karting might be a good option.

As for showing you wishbones for £100, that would mean I might not get them myself (if you got there first). Once I've got them in my hands I'll of course inform you where I got them. It's not as though they are hard to make if you have the jigs. A bit of cutting and a bit of TIGing...

[driftwood]

1 yes f3 costs per season have risen but its now a different racing format today so not easy to cross reference ££ wise however the car cost is relevent as i mentioned with other formula price i offered

2 dogs rings are a consumable yr not in racing so u have not yet done the mileage in testing and racing to see the wear rate u might be gentle u may not be under racing conditions
ive seen guys go thru dogs in a day and others can do 3-4 races
you will find top teams will replace dogs every day to eliminate fialures missed gears etc as they do with ratios clubmen however will not be so choosy!

3 powder coating reference was a figure of speach inrelation to yr new wishbones for £100 pair quote and i was pointing out thet the coating prices is a good percentage cost of that figure- we are not in a conference meeting discussing the customers order to be specific on such matters

4 Karting will teach u far more in 6 races than driving a race car will in the same time

5 making wishbones is not a difficult task for that type of car/part i have the jigs and i have the parts on the shelf

6 surprisingly cheap to maintain is an easy statement to make when you have not undertaken a seasons racing and not 1 i would be freely banding around ( when was the last time a dog bit yr butt? )

[mrsweety]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

And I'm well aware karting is way cheaper, but whilst I enjoy karting it's quite a different ball game

A 250 twin *kart* would leave your 883 for dead, gearbox karts are a different ball game and much faster, like I said you need at least a modern F3000 to match a GBOX kart :-)

Around 88/90 Gearbox karts were putting in F1 lap times! let alone F3! you should try one.

Will be interesting following your site, and good luck those old 883's are cracking looking machines

[Bob Pearson]

We can almost get the cost ( at commercial rates ) of a top wishbone for a an FR down to £100. Not sure where the rest of the set is coming from.
Most modern wishbones in club racing I have seen involve machined parts, sheet metal pressings and, of course that bit of cutting and tigging you referred to. Actually, there is a fair amount of technique to making w/bones and having a product which actually goes straight on to a car when sold. I have seen plenty of people try to make them and sell them with instructions on how to lever them into shape when fitting them. That really isn't acceptable.
Going back to Tristan's reply re powder coating, that was spot on and would definately have earned top marks at university. You are referring to cracks in the heat affected zones around the weld, something which is a product of using a high carbon steel material. Fortunately most materials used for w/bones that I know of in club racing are a reasonably low carbon content and so cracks are reasonably rare. I have seen them, but they have always, I believe been in original items. It is a problem with some wishbone designs, Dallara is one of them, that if you want to keep the vehicle looking original then you have to use a Chrome Moly tube to get the correct form.( unless someone knows otherwise) I would have to get some books out to look at the performance of that in the areas of the weld and I really should be doing some real work, so maybe someone else who makes wishbones can comment on that. But apart from the choice of tube being dictated by what's available in the right form I think it should be driven by using a material which is strong enough to meet the wishbones function in normal use but which will bend on impact rather than just survive, but with the start of a crack.
So taking all that into account, I'll stick with powder coating.

[driftwood]

Rock on Bob!!

[tristancliffe]

It's not just impact damage though - on 'historic' cars where components are generally not lifed in the same way, fatigue can pose a very real and very dangerous problem.

If I had an accident and think I knocked a wishbone I'd replace it regardless of what it looks like on the outside. But if fatigue is having it's way with the metal then it's probably nice to be able to see it. Obviously this isn't a problem on higher budget cars, where a wishbone will be replaced more regularly.

Chrome Moly Steel, whilst being an excellent material, unfortunately isn't invincible against fatigue But I'd made everything out of Chrome Moly if I had the time and money (okay, not EVERYTHING, that would be silly).

[driftwood]

wishbones are consumables wheteher u like it or not at some time in the season 1 will get bent yr fault or not
having banged wheels with another is not likely to warrant replacing it unless it is bent
historic cars are crack testing components every 2 years its that or insisting on new components every 2 years regardless
cars in formulas with higher budgets to run them ie F3 will only replace wbones when broken
F1 has lifing policy not due to the component wearing out but because they can afford to throw wbones away after 500 or 1000 miles use whatever they decree to be a life programme im sure if they ran a part long enough it could do 2-4000 miles
tregarding the metal used wel that depends on teh car and speed etc
ie u wouldnt put the mutts nuts metal into a fford wbone its going to get shunted before it wears out same with rose joints cheap n cheerful will suffice

F3000 car higher sopeed higher buld qulaity etc will warrant the better material
yes u can shut them too but u dont see the close race wheel banging there

horses for courses

[JamesH]

I have custom made wishbones on my Locost (effectively an open wheeler, not a hatchback) which come it at around £60 each unpainted, less if I supply old ones that have salvageable parts on them (means leans cutting/forming). I get through 2 or three a season, others get through more - depends on the race!!

I dont bother with powder coat, just spray paint because they tend to get broken before anything else can set in!! These are consumable parts for a reason - the wishbone folds and prevent damage to the chassis in an incident. Or in my case, prevent MAJOR damage in an incident.

James

[Bob Pearson]

I agree with you James, hence my reference to the use of materials
( whenever possible) which will bend rather than crack while remaining apparently or temporarily OK.
£60 a w/bone makes for a nice cheap accident. It's all in the design, the wishbones on our classic FF2000 are considerably easier and so cheaper to make than the more modern FR.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by driftwood

wishbones are consumables wheteher u like it or not at some time in the season 1 will get bent yr fault or not
having banged wheels with another is not likely to warrant replacing it unless it is bent
historic cars are crack testing components every 2 years its that or insisting on new components every 2 years regardless
cars in formulas with higher budgets to run them ie F3 will only replace wbones when broken
F1 has lifing policy not due to the component wearing out but because they can afford to throw wbones away after 500 or 1000 miles use whatever they decree to be a life programme im sure if they ran a part long enough it could do 2-4000 miles
tregarding the metal used wel that depends on teh car and speed etc
ie u wouldnt put the mutts nuts metal into a fford wbone its going to get shunted before it wears out same with rose joints cheap n cheerful will suffice

F3000 car higher sopeed higher buld qulaity etc will warrant the better material
yes u can shut them too but u dont see the close race wheel banging there

horses for courses

Little request - slow down when typing, because it's really hard to read.

I have never said wishbones aren't consumable items! I'm just saying that most people who run a car of this age won't be throwing them away regularly, and as such powder coating might hide damage that would otherwise be apparent.

I know banging wheels is unlikely to form 'just a crack', but I'm referring to fatigue.

Not everyone with an historic car cracks tests stuff. They should, but that doesn't mean they do.

F1 won't life something at 500 miles if it can do 4000 miles, and they won't build a component that can last, competatively, much longer than they life it for. It's lifed because after that the performance or the structural stability will have degenerated to a point where safety or performance becomes an issue. The fact they can aggressively life and replace units is because they have money.

And yes, sense has to prevail with regards to materials. But, as I said, if I had the money to do a perfect job, chrome moly would be very near the top of the list.

It sounds as though the Locost has had some though put into it (unlike in the original book where the whole thing is a bodge job really). Using the wishbones as a sacrificial structure is a great idea in that sort of car, and painting them is a sensible way of going about things.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Little request - slow down when typing, because it's really hard to read.

It's just the same face-to-face!

[tristancliffe]

Rofl!

[Steve Lowdon]

Schomosport,well said,seems he wants to run before he can walk & as you say,NOT a cheap way to be getting your motor sport thrills.

Andy,i thought your comments were spot on,why have an F3 car & NOT use it to it's full potential & as James also said that car should be used in Club F3....NOT CHEAP........maybe a little more research before investing in such a thing may have been a good idea Tristan.

[tristancliffe]

lol, you guys amuse me.

At the moment we are pursuing what is for us (at this moment in time) the ideal motorsport with the car. After just 4 laps (i.e. a sprint meeting) we are finding lots of faults with the car that the previous owner either wasn't aware of or caused. We've had a very long joblist of things to sort out on the car after Bentwater, and I bet we'll have an equally long list of things to sort out after Brands. Note, I'm not talking about general wear and tear or problems we may cause, but problems left over from previous use.

In the new year we'll be getting our ARDS as I've said, and embarking on a few tests at localish tracks (e.g. Snetterton, Brands...). Then we (I) want to race it. However, Club F3 isn't the type of racing I envisaged, it's too serious and too expensive for what I want at this moment. Not running before I can walk in any way. We're working on it slowly, from almost scratch. We're doing all the work ourselves, rather than farming it off for someone else, and we're slowly gaining confidence in the car and our own abilities at a cost/time/commitment level that suits all three of us at this time.

We did enough research to be quite honest, as the intention wasn't even to drive it this year originally, but do a proper 'in-one-go' sort of restoration to it, as well as fitting in flying our plane, building another plane, restorting, showing and exhibiting our car collection, working on the house, doing other fun things. However, I've come back from uni and 'demanded' that the car be used because I'm less patient. So we've settled on the sprint format to begin with, and we intend to do more as and when we can (i.e. the new year).

As for investing in it, that isn't the case at all. The car will not appreciably drop in value in the few months we've had it - indeed it's vastly better bolted together than it was when we bought it, so in many ways it's gone up in value. Therefore it's not an investment, but a temporary and (almost) lossless assignment of funds. It's the USING it that is the expensive part, and that will come I assure you.

To be honest, I'm quite sick of this forum. I'm just an enthusiastic as I was, and I'm 99% sure I'm on the road road for us. But the attitude of a few people here has really begun to bug me. Chances are I won't reply here again (unless one of you says something drastically out of order or magnitude of mistruth). Thanks to the first few replyees - you were very helpful. The rest of you should pull your heads out of wherever they are.

[Steve Lowdon]

Tristan.............i can see everyone wanting to help you out,good luck,you're going to need it.

[mrsweety]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

The rest of you should pull your heads out of wherever they are.

[Steve Lowdon]

Mr Sweety..........He needs to read that book by Dale Carneige........How to win friends & influence people........cos he's getting off on the right foot.

[SpawnyWhippet]

Yes, I can see plenty of people in the paddock willing to bend over backwards to help out such a mellow and jovial chap as young Tristan here.

He managed to identify long lists of faults with the car in only 4 laps that previous owners were unable to spot in whole seasons of racing. How such a talent went unnoticed for so long will be a mystery long debated over. Either that, or Mr Cliffe didn't know what he was looking at and bought a worn out old dog of a car.

Luckily, he has first rate and very cheap parts suppliers and a fleet of aircraft to freight them around, plus his engineering skills appear to be so marvellous that he won't need any assistance when he stuffs it in the tyre wall in the first lap of qualifying and has 2 hrs to rebuild 1 side of the car.

Tristan, you stated that the attitiude of a few people on here bug you. You are the one who came here for advice, yet you are arguing with very experienced racers / fabricators about how to do things and waving all your toys around. No-one here will be impressed with your BEng, what you own or do, there are probably half a dozen millionaires reading this thread who will still spank you around a track. Get some experience, learn from the people who have been there and done it (not just written college papers about it), then come back and share your thoughts when you know what you're talking about.

A final friendly word of advice before you alienate yourself from the entire UK racing population;
Take a deep breath, calm down then try to re-read this entire thread with an open mind.