The 'state' of Grand Am?

[billnchristy]

i just dont want to see a CART/IRL thing happen with the fans...its just not healthy for the sport and there are no winners!

[sportscarsRULE]

Originally posted by Patrick B
We've been over this before. GA never said they didn't care about traditional/true/past sportscar people or fans. They said they were not worried about those people. Meaning if they are TRUE sportscar people they would like the Rolex series and the DP's. If they don't like the Rolex series there probably not true sportscarfans...

If Grand-Am were a TRUE sportscar series, it would have turbo, V10, and V12 engines allowed.

[Fab]

Originally posted by billnchristy
i just dont want to see a CART/IRL thing happen with the fans...its just not healthy for the sport and there are no winners!

Definitely ; and it leads nowhere...

As Liz says above : "each his own"... even if I feel disapointed with my "own", seeing the LM 2004 enrty list

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by billnchristy
i just dont want to see a CART/IRL thing happen with the fans...its just not healthy for the sport and there are no winners!

I couldn't agree more; except that to a degree, it has already happened. It doesn't have to get worse.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by billnchristy
i just dont want to see a CART/IRL thing happen with the fans...its just not healthy for the sport and there are no winners!

I admit, I'm a novice at this sports car thing, but hasn't sports cars always been fragmented to some degree?

There have been alot of sports car series that have come and gone, and has there ever been one truly strong sports car series in North America?

Maybe its time that one strong series emerges, that can bring in new fans, through mass marketing, a consistent schedule, simple rules, simple specs, and most importantly, close racing. Grand Am can be that platform, and then maybe those fans can become fans of the ALMS and such. A casual viewer can pick-up easily whats going on in a GA race, but something like the ALMS takes abit more studying.

Just my thoughts...

[Bob Riebe]

---"hasn't sports cars always been fragmented to some degree?"---

Absolutely!! It will never change nor should. Variety is the spice of life.
Too many people pee and moan "OOOH, we need more of this and there is not enough of that (Quantity wise) because they seem to assume quantity makes quality. IF so the Chinese have the best products in the world.
The Can-Am began its decline the year they went from the standard six races to ten or more. It had been a short intense series; it became a strung out, lack-lustre (compared to '66-'68) series only propped-up by the world-wide variety of drivers and the fact it had the worlds biggest size and highest horse-power engines.
For a series to be singular, it needs something to be unique from.
Standarization means there is only one show in town, sameness breeds boredom.
As NASCAR is the "success" standard promoters aim for, I will use it as an example: The promoter is very happy, he is the only game in town ( near all use a variation of his
rules, the only major exception ASA, is now a total spec. series with sealed engines.), but back in the seventies when there were five major series, the fans were extremely happy as they had a choices, each being a little different from the other.
I saw a picture the other day, of Bobby Allison's ASA car in 1984. How many NASCAR drivers now have an ASA car?
NASCAR drivers used to regulary visit other series, now it is a big thing,"OOOHHH looky ma, Caster Oyl is going to drive a sporty car, WHOOOEE!"

Variety is good. Hostile take-overs are genuinly evil.

---"simple rules, simple specs, and most importantly, close racing."---

Simple rules is the absolute best, but why in God's name do you want a spec. of any type, period?(Do not try to confuse general rules with absolute specifications to cause equality)

Close competition is of least importance. It will happen if more than one team takes it racing seriously; competiton is about one make showing what it can do, not having daddy warbucks had allowing mediocrity to be as good as it gets.

I cannot for the life of me understand why a close race is important, period. ESPECIALLY because if it is a total farce ala-NASCAR and GARRA.
That is not close competition, it is a farce based on contrived rules.

I can say two good things about GARRA; it does offer variety (even if the rules farcical) and the fact it exists gives the ACO nighmares
Bob.
Bob

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
---Simple rules is the absolute best, but why in God's name do you want a spec. of any type, period?(Do not try to confuse general rules with absolute specifications to cause equality)

Close competition is of least importance. It will happen if more than one team takes it racing seriously; competiton is about one make showing what it can do, not having daddy warbucks had allowing mediocrity to be as good as it gets.

I cannot for the life of me understand why a close race is important, period. ESPECIALLY because if it is a total farce ala-NASCAR and GARRA.
That is not close competition, it is a farce based on contrived rules.

I can say two good things about GARRA; it does offer variety (even if the rules farcical) and the fact it exists gives the ACO nighmares
Bob.
Bob

I think its the simple specs that is one of the strengths of this series. The specs are what make it possible for alot of teams to get in on this series, because they keep things relatively cheap and competitive. No specs, means costs go through the roof, because the rich teams can outspend the little ones to win. Look at Audi in the ALMS. GA specs seem pretty limited, so I don't think the championship will be decided on who can outspend who, but who is the best driver, and I like that.

I really don't understand your comments on close racing not being important, because for me, thats why I watch racing! Who cares if an Audi LMP900 can lap the field 40 times, and nobody can get near him? Unless your a motor-head, who cares? What does that prove, that nobody else wants to spend that much to try and keep up? I want to see guys passing each other, setting each other up, going wheel-to-wheel, and if they bang doors once in awhile, thats OK.

I'm not saying that I'm right, and your wrong, to each his own, but in order for sports cars to grow in this country, close competition is a must.

[independent]

Well, seems like this will go on ad nauseum.

Why don't we try a new angle. What are the SIMILARITIES between the two series? When you realize that outside of four tires there are none, then perhaps the need to compare the two will be seen as a waste of time. I checked the official Garra board and noticed a redundancy of members there posting here in this thread. Patrick B, Bill and Christy, etc. It seems they talk more about ACO cars than their own on that forum. It gets quite boring after a while as most in Europe here have never heard more than a passing remark about this USA only racing. It would be like us discussing Football (no, not the kind with burly men in pads and tights.) You would have no clue as to the discussion.

So, lets talk what is the same about them then, perhaps this will end?

[Danske]

At the risk of being tiresome by repeating myself, both series have regulations governing the legality of the cars, car makers competing to build the best cars under those regulations, teams competing to prepare and run those cars, and drivers competing to get to the finish line first. But aside from that they are two completely different endeavors.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by independent
Well, seems like this will go on ad nauseum.

Why don't we try a new angle. What are the SIMILARITIES between the two series? When you realize that outside of four tires there are none, then perhaps the need to compare the two will be seen as a waste of time. I checked the official Garra board and noticed a redundancy of members there posting here in this thread. Patrick B, Bill and Christy, etc. It seems they talk more about ACO cars than their own on that forum. It gets quite boring after a while as most in Europe here have never heard more than a passing remark about this USA only racing. It would be like us discussing Football (no, not the kind with burly men in pads and tights.) You would have no clue as to the discussion.

So, lets talk what is the same about them then, perhaps this will end?

Sorry to bore you, but I thought this was a thread about Grand Am racing.

Don't worry, your post put an end to this discussion for me...

[Mags]

Originally posted by Liz
Ugly is ugly, no matter if it's intellectual ugliness or physical ugliness.

Well Liz, some would say I am ugly...

In a few weeks I will be introduced to the *cough* lovely world of DP's, by a few *good* men that race them that seem to LOVE them.

Can Terry B and Shane be SO WRONG??

We shall see.

[independent]

Sorry to bore you, but I thought this was a thread about Grand Am racing.

Don't worry, your post put an end to this discussion for me

I suggested we discuss the similiarities of Grand Am racing to ALMS. Instead of the same, tired three or four points that are repeated everywhere the "which is better" topic is brought up. I believe I stayed quite on topic.

Most Europeans have had no exposure to either Nascar or Grand Am. It is like a rodeo, indigenous to America and thought of as somewhat silly elsewhere. You can understand that the idea of endurance racing held on Nascar Oval Superspeedways is somewhat of a foreign notion to proper road courses.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why they are the same, instead of the perception that we have which is they are quite different.

Cheers

[thebear]

Originally posted by independent
I only wish that at some point Daytona is returned to its former glory.

Being closer "to the inside" than most of you, I can agree 100%

[Liz]

There are a few of the ALMS teams that are only racing in GA to pick up experience and pocket money. Flying Lizards being one of them.

I have never understood the fanatical desire to ram everyone into one box and force them to like the same thing. Why not let people make up their own minds what they want to do and let the market place decide which fail and which succeed? If more people want to watch GARRA, then they will succeed. If more want to watch Ice Racing, they will be the winners. But why try to make a church that will please everybody and forbid all the others from offering their opinion to the market place? That kind of thing ends up pleasing nobody and then everyone goes away and founds another church that they like. Or racing series or country or society or civilization.

Sports Car Liberation! To the Barricades!

[thebear]

Originally posted by Liz
Sports Car Liberation! To the Barricades!

Will you be the Chief Announcer for "Radio Free Sportscar Racing"?

[Liz]

We will broadcast from an AWAC high above the action and only land in countries where nobody can be prosecuted for anything -- like Canada.

Free the Sports Car Drivers and Fans! Away with [Spec] conformity! Down with limits on budgets! Let the market place rule!

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Patrick B
Grand American in my opinion is the best road racing sanctioning body in North America.

Sorry, Pat, I have to rebut your piece here.

- They always anounce rule changes well in advance of impementing them.

...but they implement rules changes in the middle of a season, after teams (and their sponsors) have already committed to running the series.

- Unlike the other series they actually listen to the conserns of the teams. Hence the move away from the ACO rules...

Actually, the other series also listens to competitors. If you took the time to talk to Chris Dyson, you'd know that.

- They have never cancled a race... ever.

...because they run at rovals owned by ISC. Wow, that's a challenge.

- They always pay the teams the awards.

As does ALMS. Really, I'm getting tired of people confusing Trans Am's payout delay with the ALMS.

- They listen to the fans, the president(Rodger E) even goes as far as to have Q&A's with the fans on a regular basis.

I've had online chats with various officials at ALMS, and had Don Panoz at my campsite at Mosport. How is this different?

- Its true racing, without the "fluff" that comes with the other RR series.

Not sure what you mean here. Is the "phantom debris caution" part of "true racing?" Or suspiciously long red flag sessions?

Oh and they have the best looking and diverse sportscars around.

I'll leave this one alone. Aesthetics are personal opinion, and I disagree, but who's to say who's right?

[klb]

Dang Paul-Collins, that was done rather nicely.

[The Badger]

**smug chuckle** ..... nice one Paul Collins *wink*

[Tim Northcutt]

"I've had online chats with various officials at ALMS, and had Don Panoz at my campsite at Mosport. How is this different?"

(posted by paul-collins)

I also have found the ALMS people to be very responsive and forthright in their responses to any and all queries or requests for clarification or information from them....

In fact, I was amazed at how quickly and thoroughly their replies have been to anything I have sent to them....

I have never made such requests to Grand Am officials, but I can certainly tell you without a doubt that the ALMS it top notch when it comes to listening to the fans and responding to them in a meaningful way....

No form letters or generalized b.s....they took the time to give me very thoughtful and extensive responses....

I would assume that if they treat a common fan that they don't know from a tree in such a thoughtful way, that they would be even more inclined to be highly responsive to the teams and drivers who comprise their Series....

It just seems to make sense to me that this would be the case....

[The Badger]

We had Maroc Werner at the campsite last year at LeMans , he must have been brave to venture into the LeMans tent zone !!!

[paul-collins]

It occurred to me after posting that I could also have mentioned the Maser Trofeo's fuel cell size break for the Rolex 24 in rebutting the point about rules changes, too. Although I'm sure that the other GT contenders never felt put out by the magnanimous gesture to the defending GT team.

[billnchristy]

for what it is worth:

GA is a baby series in the grand scheme of things, on top of that, they re-invented themselves last year only.

ALMS is based on ACO rules which governs Lemans which has been around for ages...

Of course there will be rules tweaks necessary!! Im sure if you look back to the founding days of Lemans and the World Championship there were a lot of tweaks to make things work?!?

Now take that how you will, it was not a blind defense of everything GA does, because I dont disagree that some shady happenings have occured...though I do generally agree they are getting better!

I dont think Barber, Mt Tremblant, Mid Ohio or VIR are owned by ISC, nor was Trois Riveries, Lime Rock, Road America and they managed races there without cancellation.

On the other hand, it really sucks that ALMS got stuck by shady promotors...the DC race was a huge success and the largest ALMS crowd I have ever seen (you dont see 150k at sebring on camera, but at DC you can easily see how they say 40k was there!). I wish it would come back, but politics take care of that!!

ahhh, forget, im talking to the wall anyways!

[skycafe]

The Washington DC problem was not 'shady' promoter, or the possibility of not getting paying crowd, it was the noise. Shame for them, because tolerating one long weekend's noise, which was daylight hours only, would have put a pretty good chunck of money into their economy.

[paul-collins]

I like the idea that GRAND might fit b'n'c's description of "shady promoter."

Frankly, I thought it was a terrible thing for them to cancel Mexico out from under the ALMS when preregistration was approaching 50 cars (46 at last tally IIRC). But Forsythe's money is made in CART first...

ALMS and to a lesser extent GA have both learned from ALMS' failures with previous schedules. All of the races are now with firmly established venues. (GA, remember, didn't announce Tremblant this year until the local council came to an agreement on the noise issue, allowing the race to go forward.)