Too many events and series in 2011

[RTH]

Do the clubs keep a record of numbers of cars entered in events that we could see over the past 5 years in order to get a year on year comparison?

Some hard facts might give an indication of what has happened and what the likely trend is. The economic outlook would suggest a pullback is likely but has that actually started to happen yet ?
There always comes a point where clubs will amalgamate races with low numbers, cancel races, cancel series and even events when supports drops far enough. Just how healthy are the finances of some of the motor racing car clubs these days going in to 2011 ?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by SAMD

The difficulty here as I see it - coming from Northern Ireland! is that the vociferous minority are heard. ie Chunder represents how many spectators? one? but what percentage of the threads?

That's just a forum thing and chunder only represents a tad over 11% of this thread, if that's what you mean. Tenths and other forums such as the dark side (PH) are excellent at stirring the very vocal minority but mention this or other discussions to 99% of the punters or racers at any meeting and they wont have a clue what you are on about. This has happened time and time again, sometimes to the cost of members on here when they thought like you, but in the real world people like chunder have no real affect on the running of anything be it motor racing or anything else.

Tenths and other discussion places are great for batting ideas around and getting things going but in the real world you need more than just a few pages on a website to get real change.

[delta]

This is a great thread.Just to add that our level of motor sport has never been a spectator sport its for us participants.I'm sure that short oval racing is very entertaining watching .BTW Chunder we have a short oval car in the camp which MK1 Mart drives and i find the whole concept fascination,for sure its different to what I'm used too but at the end of the day its motor racing.
Im sitting in my frozen office and have most of my drivers dates in for this year and its going to be another bumper year"if only i could make some money". I was also thinking that I'm a lucky boy as a lot of people are struggling in this climate but my business is getting ever better.,.I still stand by my words from some years ago that there are too many meetings for historics and as i said last year and the year before would it not be an idea for the clubs to get round a table to sort out who's going to organise, what dates, circuits, what cars,ect.
It will never happen and ATEOTD someone will loose out.

[RickT]

Hi All

Lots of interesting reading here.

One thing that is for sure is that there are not too many races/events for ALL types of historics. Dad and I run a Can-Am car, this year we will probably get two races in the UK, maybe three, all the other events involve a trip to Europe. As we do all the work and the transport ourselves, we often cant afford to take the extra days off work for the European hauls.

We would love to have more opportunities to run in the UK

Cheers
Richard

[zefarelly]

I do think the gate fees to get in and watch amateur club motorsport are a little rich, we pay pay for the whole bloody lot as entrants, it should be minimally nominal if not free.

personally I won't pay to go and watch, what or where ever it is, and I'll do my best to get any guests in gratis of they want; to come and watch.

you don't pay to go up the park and watch a game of Football on a Saturday afternoon.

[Al Weyman]

Just to comment on one of chunders points about histo not pushing it too hard well personally that hasnt been my experience maybe he should come and watch a CTCRC meeting, maybe our cars are worth a tad less so are pushed a tad harder I dont know but there is usually a fair bit of action and if he had gone to the Lydden thing I am sure he would have seen plenty including me over doing it and stuffing the old girl. Having said that true historic spectators I would imagine would be almost as satifified just seing some of the rare old cars given a run out even in a near demo type race as in the States. Would you risk a 100k original for balls out motorsport, I wouldnt!

[chunder]

Forums are about discussion, that's all.

I have been involved in many facets of motorsport over the years, from competing at a basic to level, to PR and reporting.

This forum is good as one can stir up opinions on a variety of topics. My basic view is that historic racing has been growing in recent years. Why? I don't know. Lots of people wanting to relive their past I expect, and also despite what the people on here tell me, lots of people with lots of money aswell, who aren't spending in say bike racing, or speedway or hillclimbing? There ALWAYS exceptions to every sentence I reiterate.

But for myself and a few friends the racing we have watched has not been up to scratch as a fan. When you watch races and people are getting lapped after 4 laps that's not good enough and is quite frankly embarrassing and dangerous! In the racing I watch this sort of thing would not be tolerated and said person would be asked to load up. I have seen it more than once and it leaves a bad taste when some of the racing is superb.

I can only comment, not offer advice or real experience as I can't afford to compete in any way now, would love to but don't have the money. Or I would be one of you berating.

Incidentally, the Lydden thing is not really a reflection of proper short oval racing, Late Models are all well and good, but try 35 of them with full contact and handicapped starts. Thats real racing lol (and begin..)

I do not know much about the classic saloons stuff as have never seen it, but from what I see these guys are pretty much on it a bit more!

[Derwent Motorsp]

Could I just clarify that GTS is for pre 66 FIA spec cars up to 2,500 cc, MG As, Midgets, Bs, TRs, Austin Healeys etc, running on 70 profile tyres, so they are not the same as in the MGCC various championships which tend to run to "Modsports" regs and use either Advan or full race tyres.
Circuit hire fees are very high now as demand outstrips supply. For many tracks the "non motorsport" activities make more money than the average clubby meeting where are are few spectators. Hence clubs are happy to sell a grid to someone who will take the financial risk of getting enough entries. Last year we saw the strange sight of the Fiat Abarth 500 races at all sorts of inappropriate events because they were willing to pay really silly fees to perform in front of a big audience.
The situation at Croft underlines the problem. Since the noise issue a couple of years ago they now have a limited number of "noisy" days. Thus the smaller events, like the national sprint and possibly the two single vneue rallies run in the winter will get the chop in favour of bigger race meetings that produce more revenue.
If there were more tracks available then track hire would be a lot less.

[Al Weyman]

We were unfrtunate that for a variety of reasons not many late models turned out whicj is a pity because it was my suggestion (as an ex short circuit racer) to invite the oval boys and I doubt they will be invited to the next festival at Mallory which IMO is a bit oif a shame. I can tell you this though from my days HotRod racing, nearly every short circuit racer yearns to go on the full circuits.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by chunder

But for myself and a few friends the racing we have watched has not been up to scratch as a fan. When you watch races and people are getting lapped after 4 laps that's not good enough and is quite frankly embarrassing and dangerous! In the racing I watch this sort of thing would not be tolerated and said person would be asked to load up. I have seen it more than once and it leaves a bad taste when some of the racing is superb.(and begin..)

I do not know much about the classic saloons stuff as have never seen it, but from what I see these guys are pretty much on it a bit more!

Frankly old bean thats 80110cks, Many historic race series cover a broad spectrum of marques and ages, so, has beens and never will be's aside, there will always be a large disparity in lap times, LeMans has always had this, and hopefuly always will. THe fact 99% of the racing is clean is testament to the driving standards enforced and observed ( righly so with so much irreplacable machinery )

If all you can gauge it by is a grid of identikit hot rods built by 2 or 3 teams tearing round in very small circles you need to get out more or do a bit more homework.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

If there were more tracks available then track hire would be a lot less.

It would be interesting if someone built a decent new circuit in England, It can't cost more to do than a bloody golf course!

Of course it would need to be well designed with no aero type cars in mind.

[Al Weyman]

He should have witnessed your slide at Lydden Joe where it looked like you lost it but somehow completed a superb overtaking manouver, maybe i will lend him the video! i have genuinely watched some really great Historic races and been in one or two as well, me and Cliff swapping places 18 times at Snet for example and we were midfield, so what it was fun and good to watch judging by the amount of people that came up to us afterwards.

[zefarelly]

wasn't that Brands? and I promptly ran a bearing ( chinese oil pumps )

[Al Weyman]

Dont golf courses get a grant? I tell you what though it would be ready a darn sight sooner as you wouldnt have to wait for the thing to grow and mature (5 years?)

Yes I think it was actually coming out of Paddock, sorry. and yes there are some slow cars out there but so what they stay out the way and do their own thing good luck to them!

[Moosehead]

Interesting comment regarding getting lapped after 4 laps and being asked to load up. Well I've been to loads of short oval racing ( I live just down the road from Hednesford raceway) and have seen plenty of lapping after just a handfull of laps. Never seen anyone told to go home. Lapping the backmarkers in oval racing is surely one of the main facets of being a decent driver as it is in historic (or any other circuit racing). As a spectator I find it interesting to see how the lead drivers 'dispose' of the tail enders. I've also been to meetings where the racing has been a complete procession and I'm talking about all categorys from Nat Hod Rods to BRISCA stockers, however, I have also been to meetings where the action is so thick and fast you can't take your eyes off the track.................just like some historic meetings. You're always going to get good action races and crap boring races no matter what the category.

As for too many events, well as far as I'm concerned it can only give me more choice. In 2011 I will continue to race with the CSCC as their races and tech regs are just right for me, however, I would also like to try out a few other meetings (CTCRC festival for one) which without the choice I obviously couldn't do.

[Lancsbreaker]

I do feel Chunderer is being provocative for the sake of it - he's more or less admitted as much - but it does maybe bring some interesting points out. However comparing circuit racing of any class - except maybe BTCC to short oval "full contact" racing is pointless - you might as well compare it to boxing. I used to enjoy going to Belle Vue to watch the Stock Cars - can still remember hearing the wail of the few straight-six Jag engines rising above the rumble of the Detroit iron, and enjoying the red-tops fighting there way through to the front - just as for many years I slogged my way into the forests to watch Escorts, Avengers, Saabs etc being hurled through the forests. But I don't compare them to watching circuit racing - no point, an entirely different discipline.

For sure, having competed up to International level in Stage rallying, I used to take the mick out of the "roundy-round" racers, telling my mate when he switched to racing that it was a retirement move......however when he bullied me into doing my ARDS and joining him in Future Classics, racing suddenly appeared to get a lot more competitive. I've no doubt to the (few) spectators I'm just one of the slow old duffers as I have my mid-field dices with others who are paying their £300 or so race entry fee - but you know, as others have said - I'm not racing for the benefit of someone who's paid £10 or £15 to get in to watch - I'm racing for myself and the buzz you get when you can go and shake hands with a fellow competitor after a 40 minute race and have a laugh about the good dice you've had

[midgetman]

A very interesting diversion from the original thread and it could be argued that if all the series combined their grids to serve the spectators with 48 cars at a time, some exciting racing is guaranteed, a,l down the field, and while lapping takes place. Nothing like big grids to keep speccies interested!

The MSA could continue to let championships flourish as long as they combine with others to make grids of at least 35 cars?

[Nick JM]

I echo Lancsbreaker on this - I am racing for myself and not for the benefit of any spectators.

I do disagree with the comment regarding spectator costs though - to a point. I have spectated at all levels of motorsport for many years and genuinely have not minded forking out a tenner for a day out. Children under 16 are free and to be honest it is a pretty cheap day out in the open air - you can always pack a picnic and take a bike and, if like Chuunder, you get bored, go for a ride until things hot up again!

However I do think that the level of spectating fees being charged for top level racing (F1 and the like) is preposterous. Coupled with that the cost of on circuit facilities ( a tenner for a revolting burger and artifical tasting fries) is stratospheric

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

Could I just clarify that GTS is for pre 66 FIA spec cars up to 2,500 cc, MG As, Midgets, Bs, TRs, Austin Healeys etc, running on 70 profile tyres, so they are not the same as in the MGCC various championships which tend to run to "Modsports" regs and use either Advan or full race tyres.

So App K but special tyres then. Thanks for the clarification.

None-the-less you do get crossover cars from BCV8 etc. So from that POV you could say your series is not needed. However I subscribe to the theory that I could run in App K class AB in BCV8 and then change wheels/tyres and run with you at the same meeting.

[Derwent Motorsp]

The Equipe GTS regs state
Cars must use Dunlop CR65 L or M tyres or other road legal 70 profile tyres.
Yes we can race in the other MG series, either on the existing tyres, or by switching to Yokos. We do have very strict driving standards though and they are enforced while the BCV8 etc are a bit rougher and less worried about their cars. The GTS races are usually 30 minutes, often double headers, while the MGCC series are sprint races.

[Peter Mallett]

Hopefully I'll make MG live this year so we'll see.

[chunder]

Well as previously mentioned I was being provocative to a point.

But nice to see a relatively balanced argument, it has to be said maonly from competitors who are damned if anyone gives a stuff about complaining they are slow!!

Competing is but a dream for many of us so maybe you are right, but just dont forget some of us would love to have a go and likely be lright too! But instead we have to pay a fortune sometimes, stand in palces miles away, have no cover if it rains and not be allowed to come and talk to you often times!

[Al Weyman]

ha ha a tenner to get in a fortune, try £200 odd for a 15/20 minute race and all the petrol to get there and back and round the track, thats a fortune!

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by chunder

Well as previously mentioned I was being provocative to a point.

But nice to see a relatively balanced argument, it has to be said maonly from competitors who are damned if anyone gives a stuff about complaining they are slow!!

Competing is but a dream for many of us so maybe you are right, but just dont forget some of us would love to have a go and likely be lright too! But instead we have to pay a fortune sometimes, stand in palces miles away, have no cover if it rains and not be allowed to come and talk to you often times!

Its really easy to criticise someone for being slow when standing trackside - I know I've done it. However, there may be extenuating circumstances for the 'slowness' that as a spectator you would not necessarily know. Maybe the driver is having to use a standard engine or whatever due to budget?? Then again what gives anyone not actually in the race the right to complain about a slow driver? As drivers we could maybe complain that you as a spectator are boring to look at as we drive by as you're not an 18yr old blonde in a bikini (btw, if you are you are welcome to come talk to me anytime you want )

As for prices and spectating facilities I suggest you take that up with the circuits themselves............I'm sure they'll listen

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by chunder

Well as previously mentioned I was being provocative to a point.

But nice to see a relatively balanced argument, it has to be said maonly from competitors who are damned if anyone gives a stuff about complaining they are slow!!

Competing is but a dream for many of us so maybe you are right, but just dont forget some of us would love to have a go and likely be lright too! But instead we have to pay a fortune sometimes, stand in palces miles away, have no cover if it rains and not be allowed to come and talk to you often times!

Don't know where you've been spectating, but at every circuit we race (Snetterton / Brands / Mallory / Cadwell / Donington / Silverstone / Oulton / Anglesey access to the paddock is open to all....

and as Moosehead said - and I alluded to in my earlier post - it always looks a lot slower from outside than it does sat in the car - and I don't believe any of us deliberately drive slower than we are capable of going, tho obviously as experience builds we may get quicker......counter-balancing that of course there is the old adage: "The older I get the faster I was......"

Pace can be limited by budget - we have to make a set of tyres last a season, whereas some guys have a new set each race, and we can't afford the time or money to go testing before each meet, so whenever there are changes at a circuit or its one we haven't visited often, we are on the learning curve in qualifying. Throw in a wet session when we've only raced in the dry, and worrying about Joe Public's appreciation of our less-than-finely honed talent is the least of our worries

Face it, get rid of the slower drivers, and you'll be moaning that you've got half-empty grids........