The Big honking holes question

[cmk]

There seem to be several around the front and near side of the panel, and it's hard to see the other two sides but it appears as though they are used to secure the rim around the hole analogous to the old louvre panel rather than to bolt anything onto it. That still could suggest they have alternate hole inserts to swap in, of course.

[gwyllion]

I think that The Badger is right. The louver panels are still missing. On the pictures of the Gulf Racing Lola LMP2, you can see that the hole is part of a separate insert: http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-9618.html

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by cmk

There seem to be several around the front and near side of the panel, and it's hard to see the other two sides but it appears as though they are used to secure the rim around the hole analogous to the old louvre panel rather than to bolt anything onto it. That still could suggest they have alternate hole inserts to swap in, of course.

Anchor nuts are riveted to the structure , with a rivet normally on both sides . You can even see the hole inbetween the rivets where the screw would secure the louvre . You need rivets (soild or pop) to secure the anchor nut , cuz effectivily is is what is refered to as a blind nut . On the above pic of the Gulf Lola , you can see the screw heads attaching the louvre to the flange .

[prototype]

After watching the McNish accident at Le Mans in 2011, I really think the holes kept this car from launching over the tire wall. Of course, I have no way to prove this, but compared to other LMP1/LMP900 accidents (BMW and Porsche at Petit, Acura at Petit, Peugeot in the Porsche curves, Oreca and Creation at Monza) it is remarkable how low to the ground this car stayed given the speed and the downward slope it was heading at the time of yaw.

[chernaudi]

LMPs didn't have the holes in 2011--the thing that kept Allan on the ground during the spin was the dorsal fin that's been equally as derided by fans as not belonging on LMP cars, and Allan and Rocky's offs is what lead to the holes on the cars for this year, as well as some bad accidents that Peugeot had in private testing last year. Only time I've heard of the holes maybe working was when Bernhard had is accident at Sebring during testing.

[canam]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

LMPs didn't have the holes in 2011--

In the 2006-2010 period (when cars ran louvres), cars would have to make a stop to change any broken louvres above the wheels. Sometimes that could wreck a team's whole race.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

the thing that kept Allan on the ground during the spin was the dorsal fin that's been equally as derided by fans as not belonging on LMP cars,

I dont believe they did ..... the car was always slowing in the gravel from the point of entering the trap to the impact . Where have you seen it written that the fin actually did the business then ?

Derided , even the ACO realise they are unsightly now , and are exploring possible alternatives , good .

They just do not look right at all , and completely destroy any atempt at a graceful body design . The only thing you can possibily do to try and meke it look kinda ok , is camoflage it into the colors , Oak/Gulf , Dyson and Pescarolo 03 have tried and it kinda works ..... but they are awful full stop .

I dont have much faith in the ACO/Fia aero idea team if thats the best they can come up with ..... ground effects would be better , imo .

[Aysedasi]

I noticed the holes on the first few cars I saw at scrutineering at Le Mans, but then virtually ignored them. The aesthetic effect is minimal in reality (I have little interest in the technical issues...). It's a bit like the BHFs, they look so much better this year - some clever artwork has been employed by most teams, plus the fact that I'm now used to them. They don't look half as aesthetically unpleasant as they did when I first saw them last year....

[The Badger]

The holes dont bother me at all ..... its that billboard that is cronic !!!

[Acid09]

Because you`re focusing too much on it. They stood out when they were added to existing chassis but with new cars like the TS030 they`re just part of the design.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Because you`re focusing too much on it

Its hard not too !!! How can you not see it ..... thats just not possible as it totally destroys the fliud lines of any shape ..... I cant see how you can make a comment like that ?

[Acid09]

I just don't see it, it looks fine if it's well integrated in the car's design/livery.

It's not like it's a new concept either, there have been Group C cars with fins back in the day.

I really don't see the reason for all this fuss, it's like with the narrower rear-wings a few years ago or the higher ground clearance introduced with the 2004 LMP1 rules.

It's a bit odd at first but 2 weeks later you stop noticing because it has become the norm.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Acid09

it's like with the narrower rear-wings

That still bothers me a lot, actually much more so than the BHFs and BHHs, which I've at least sort of gotten used to on most of the cars.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Its hard not too !!! How can you not see it ..... thats just not possible as it totally destroys the fliud lines of any shape ..... I cant see how you can make a comment like that ?

I never thought I'd admit it after last year, but the fact is G that he's absolutely right. The clever use of artwork has made the BHF's really blend in surprisingly well.

[gregtummer]

I can live with the Big Honking Holes, but I still can't get over the fin. The fin looks okay on the closed cars, but looks absolutely awful on the open top cars.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I never thought I'd admit it after last year, but the fact is G that he's absolutely right. The clever use of artwork has made the BHF's really blend in surprisingly well.

Some cars take to the fins better than others - and the closed cars do work better.

I was struck however with the open cars, especially in LMP2, that the fins tend to make the cars all look a little samey. At Spa last month I was struck that I was relying on livery and team identification to tell the difference, whereas hitherto I'd have backed myself to go on shape alone.

[Pandamasque]

The fact that we can ignore these things doesn't make the cars beautiful. They are fugly, almost all of them. Imagine hug wacky they look to someone who's new to Le Mans racing? Thinking of a sports prototype they'd imagine something sleek, 962-like. Not this:


Potential sponsors may have similar thoughts.

[Aysedasi]

In your opinion, which you're entitled to. For me, closed cars will invariably be more beautiful than open cars anyway. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. They can't do anything about the BHFs and BHHs, so we might as well stop moaning about it and congratulate those teams whose design work has made the best of it.....

[Acid09]

You`re basicly blaming physics for the way the cars look. Group C cars might be considered beautiful but they were aerodynamically underdeveloped by today's standards.

Form follows function, the cars are supposed to represent the latest in technology.

[cdsvg]

This isnt really true though, the fins arent an inevitable development because they are aerodynamically superior, they are there (by rule) to overcome a limitation that is partly specific to modern LMPs. With a different aerodynamic ruleset its possible the fins wouldnt be needed (and I say *needed*, not 'developed' or 'chosen').

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

In your opinion, which you're entitled to.

Show that to somebody who's not a sportscar fan. This is a glass half full/half empty situation. Reminds me of many F1 fans who now say they don't even notice the step in the nose anymore. It may be in our interest to be optimistic as we're fans anyway. But for someone from the side most LMPs look as unattractive as current F1 cars or IndyCars. I remember Chris Harris, who's a true car guy and seems to love old sportscars, compared the last year's 908 vs. R18 battle to a bunch of slippers racing each other.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by isynge

At Spa last month I was struck that I was relying on livery and team identification to tell the difference, whereas hitherto I'd have backed myself to go on shape alone.

Now , that says it all if you ask me . They fins are hideous , end of .

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Form follows function, the cars are supposed to represent the latest in technology.

This isnt technology , its an aero screw up .

For example , a fortex generator on an airplane is a sure sign of a quick fix for an aero screw up . I know , as Ive been working on airplanes for 27 years .

This fin not alone is ugly , its an aero screw up and if its the best they can come up with , shame on them .

To be honest , Im loosing interest in protos now . I never thought I would say that as Im a proto person . I dont feel the need to lay out 1200 euro to go see the Le mans 24 hours now ..... so Im watching my TV instead ...... not the main reason im not there granted , but this is really putting me off , after attending the race 19 times .

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Show that to somebody who's not a sportscar fan.

I did, several times. Well, not the HPD, but things like the R18 or the Oreca P2. The response was always "cool car". Maybe it's ugly to you, because you're looking back fondly on the 962, but someone who hasn't been around sportscars and doesn't know what the number 962 means doesn't have a basis for comparison.

And personally, I think most Group C cars look good, but dated. The same way an E-Type would look out of place racing at Le Mans today.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Show that to somebody who's not a sportscar fan. This is a glass half full/half empty situation. Reminds me of many F1 fans who now say they don't even notice the step in the nose anymore. It may be in our interest to be optimistic as we're fans anyway. But for someone from the side most LMPs look as unattractive as current F1 cars or IndyCars. I remember Chris Harris, who's a true car guy and seems to love old sportscars, compared the last year's 908 vs. R18 battle to a bunch of slippers racing each other.

I love slippers - even brought mine to Le Mans with me....

Again, so what.

It's a 'deal with it' situation and constantly griping about it won't make any difference. Say it the first time and people may listen and respect the opinion, by the tenth time it's just very dull.....




I should add - IMO.......