Is LMP1 On the Verge of Death for Privateers?

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

This is completely false.

To me the Porsche won because the tracks in america are twistier(is that even a word?) than the european tracks. The European LMS tracks all have a decent straight where the Audi could put it's power down.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Penske had first call on all the latest factory developments . If I had been Dyson , I would have thrown the RS Spyder back in Porsche's face and told them to stick it where the sun dont shine !!!
.

Of course, this is the way Porsche works, and always has. It still was the best car that Dyson could buy. When they did dump the Spyder, they went with the inferior Lola/Mazda package. Frankly it was the wrong move.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by NelisB

To me the Porsche won because the tracks in america are twistier(is that even a word?) than the european tracks. The European LMS tracks all have a decent straight where the Audi could put it's power down.

agree, basicly is what i've written some post ago. Afterall also the arx-02a even if is a lmp1 was built to act like an lmp2 in the american tracks.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by NelisB

To me the Porsche won because the tracks in america are twistier(is that even a word?) than the european tracks. The European LMS tracks all have a decent straight where the Audi could put it's power down.

..and yet the Lap speeds in North America during that time were mostly above that of the LMS.

What was the longest straight in LMS? Paul Ricard at 1.2km? Compare this to the front straight of 1.34km of Road America. I'm not sure how many times this falsehood has to be proven false before people believe it.

a) IMSA and ALMS made a promise to Porsche/Penske and Acura that there would be rules stability for a couple of years. The ALMS used the ACO rules of 2007 to the T, for three years. The ACO on the other hand modified the rules of P2, to make them less competitive.

b) Penske and the Acura P2 teams were far more professionally run than any of the European P2 teams at that time.

As far as the original topic is concerned, the ongoing mismanagement of the sport by the governing bodies is the prime reason for the lack of cars in P1. (across the board)

[alexkiller8]

not completly correct, ok in track like sebring, miller and road america there is a straight longer than 1 km (not sure about this of sebring, for however has a long straight) while the other tracks like laguna seca, long beach, mosport, lime rock, mid-ohio, road atlanta are fast track but without any really long straight! is useless to say that a light and agile car like were the lmp2 suit better than a heavier lmp1 that couldn't run at full power. BTW highcroft acura did a good lm race, fast like the strakka one but unlucky during the race (if i remember well the only petrol lmp1 able to finish better than the strakka acura was only the oreca01)

[canam]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

As far as the original topic is concerned, the ongoing mismanagement of the sport by the governing bodies is the prime reason for the lack of cars in P1. (across the board)

agree 100%

[Purist]

It is certainly the case that the American circuits, to a significant degree, were friendlier to the LMP2s than were a number of the European circuits. Also, after 2006, the European LMP2s were pegged back quite a bit more than those running in the ALMS.

From the tracks on the various (E)LMS schedules, here are the circuits where I think those LMP2s might have been able to stand up to the LMP1s, if they hadn't been shackled by the ACO.
1. Donington
2. Jarama
3. Valencia
4. Algarve
5. Hungaroring
6. Estoril

Here are the (E)LMS tracks where the LMP2s likely stood no chance of winning overall, no matter how unshackled they were.
1. Le Mans
2. Monza
3. Nurburgring
4. Silverstone
5. Spa
6. Istanbul
7. Catalunya
8. Paul Ricard
9. Imola
10. Zolder*
11. Brno*

And it isn't exactly that the American circuits are inherently "twistier", but rather that the American road courses tend to have a greater proportion of high-speed corners, where the LMP2s excelled, and the LMP1s (especially the ungainly Audi R10) didn't fare quite so favorably. The three circuits that the LMP2s did NOT win on are perhaps surprising, at least in two out of the three. Those three circuits are St. Petersburg, Road Atlanta, and Laguna Seca.

I would say that what favored the LMP2s was short(er) straights and a relative abundance of high-speed corners. What aided the LMP1s was long straights, and having slow-speed corners leading onto what straights there are on a circuit.

EDIT: Fogel, the back straight at Paul Ricard is a mile (1.6km) in length. Also, under ideal conditions, the LMPs can take Eau Rouge flat-out, with the run from La Source to Les Combes being around 2.1km since the 2006/07 modifications. Blanchimont is flat in the LMPs, and that run is close to a mile. The pit straight at Catalunya is close to 1,100m. So there are long straights in Europe, and the aforementioned are just a few.

EDIT 2: Alex, the back "straights" at Mosport and Road Atlanta are both quite long (~4,000ft or more). The Ullmann Straight at Sebring is 0.595 of a mile (957.5m).

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

not completly correct, ok in track like sebring, miller and road america there is a straight longer than 1 km (not sure about this of sebring, for however has a long straight) while the other tracks like laguna seca, long beach, mosport, lime rock, mid-ohio, road atlanta are fast track but without any really long straight! is useless to say that a light and agile car like were the lmp2 suit better than a heavier lmp1 that couldn't run at full power. BTW highcroft acura did a good lm race, fast like the strakka one but unlucky during the race (if i remember well the only petrol lmp1 able to finish better than the strakka acura was only the oreca01)

Mosport, Road Atlanta and Laguna Seca don't have a long straight? Really?

Mosport From 5B to 8 is 1.2 km.

Laguna from 11 to Andretti Hairpin is just shy of 1km.

Road Atlanta - from 7 to 10A is 1.28km

so....

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Porsche seems to be the only manufacturer in recent times to build top level prototypes for sale to customers. I cannot think of any others that did it in the same way, although there were a few Audis in private hands in the early naughties.

I was thinking of P1 cars C1 cars from the past as P2 and C2 were mostly for private entries. In mentioning manufacturers I was thinking of major motor manufacturers as against race car manufacturers who want to sell their cars.

[Purist]

Well, the last large car company I can think of that sold its prototypes to customers in real numbers was probably Ford with the GT40 Mk. I.

[GT6]

what about porsche with the 962

[TF110]

Road America's front straight is uphill, so no matter the length it's still a pretty big climb. When the Penske Porsche was around, the LMP2 cars were favorable against the P1's compared to today. Anyway, lets hope we have teams like Strakka or M.Milk that can get the latest and greatest.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by The Badger

This is why I dont want to see Penske with the new proto Porsche in the ALMS , cuz it would raise the level of competition too much for a series thats not in good shape , and possibily cause concerns for teams planning on moving into the class .

How would that be any different than Audi uber-domination we saw most of the time from 2000 to when they pulled out from running full-time?

[Dyson Mazda]

Well, the last large car company I can think of that sold its prototypes to customers in real numbers was probably Ford with the GT40 Mk. I.

Ferrari with the 333SP is probably the right answer to that question.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by TF110

Road America's front straight is uphill, so no matter the length it's still a pretty big climb. When the Penske Porsche was around, the LMP2 cars were favorable against the P1's compared to today. Anyway, lets hope we have teams like Strakka or M.Milk that can get the latest and greatest.

This is false: The ORIGINAL P2 rules were less restrictive than today's rules.

Here is a brief history of the RS Spyder:

2005

The RS Spyder made its race debut at the final round of the 2005 American Le Mans Series, the Monterey Sports Car Championship at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, entered by Penske Racing and driven by Lucas Luhr and Sascha Maassen from the Porsche Junioren factory team. The sole RS Spyder finished first in class and fifth overall.[3]

2006

During 2006, Penske entered two RS Spyders in the ALMS and won seven class victories including outright victory at the Mid-Ohio race.[4] This was the first LMP2 victory in a race since 2003 and the first major result for Porsche since the 1998 24 Hours of Le Mans. The results ensure victory for Penske in the LMP2 Championship and also for Sascha Maassen in the drivers' standings.[5]

2007

For 2007, Porsche unveiled the 2007-spec RS Spyder (known as the RS Spyder Evo), which included an increase in power to 503 horsepower (375 kW).[6] Dyson Racing joined Penske in the ALMS. 2007 would be the most successful year for the RS Spyder with Penske repeating their outright victory in the ALMS series a further eight times and also securing an additional three class victories.[7] Penske again won the LMP2 class in ALMS and Romain Dumas won the LMP2 Drivers Championship. During the season the RS Spyder won eight races while the Audi R10 TDI from the largest P1 class won only four.[8]

2008

Rule changes increased the RS Spyder's weight to 825kg[9] and Porsche introduce a new direct injection engine developing 503 horsepower (375 kW).[10] A Penske car driven by Timo Bernhard, Romain Dumas, and Emmanuel Collard, secured the overall victory at the 2008 12 Hours of Sebring, winning it on the 20th anniversary of Porsche's last overall win at the race.[11] Penske had another outright victory at the Utah Grand Prix and also recorded an additional three class wins. At Petit Le Mans a 3rd RS Spyder was entered by Penske in an attempt to lock out the manufacturers' championship against Acura. Penske won both the LMP2 Team and drivers' championship for Timo Bernhard and Romain Dumas. Porsche won the manufacturers' championship by 1 point ahead of Acura.[12]
Danish Team Essex together with Van Merksteijn Motorsport of The Netherlands and Horag Racing of Switzerland participate in the Le Mans Series (LMS) all with 2008-spec RS Spyder. Team Essex and Van Merksteijn also entered the 24 Hours of Le Mans, marking the debut for the RS Spyder at the event. A RS Spyder from Van Merksteijn Motorsport driven by Jeroen Bleekemolen, Peter van Merksteijn and Jos Verstappen, came first in class and 10th overall with the Essex team coming second in class (12th overall).[13] A RS Spyder won its class in every LMS race giving it a 1-2-3 in the LMP2 standing and securing the drivers championship for Jos Verstappen and the Team championship for Van Merksteijn Motorsport.

2009

New restrictor rules brought the RS Spyder's power down to approximately 440 horsepower (330 kW),[14] and the wingspan was limited by the rules, effectively decreasing downforce.[15]
Penske did not compete in the ALMS in 2009 but Team CytoSport, who had previously competed in LMP1 in 2007, purchased an ex-Dyson Racing RS Spyder[16] and took part in four races with a best result of second in class at Road America.[17]
In LMS, Team Essex only competed in the 1000 km race at Spa taking the class victory and also securing the class victory at Le Mans, finishing 10th overall with Casper Elgaard, Kristian Poulsen and Emmanuel Collard at the wheel. Team Goh also took part in the race with an ex-Van Merksteijn Motorsport car.[18]

2010

CytoSport announced in February 2010 that it would contest the full ALMS in a RS Spyder.[19] It was also announced that Sascha Maassen would join the regular drivers Klaus Graf and Greg Pickett at the longer races at Sebring, Laguna Seca and Road Atlanta.[20] Cytosport used a full-width rear wing for the entire season, unlike arch-rivals Highcroft HPD. The CytoSport RS Spyder won the LMP2 class at the 12 Hours of Sebring[21] and took their first outright victory at Northeast Grand Prix at Lime Rock.[22] CytoSport continued their winning success by taking outright victory at a shorten race at Mosport.[23] They also finished the season second behind Patrón Highcroft Racing in the championship and Klaus Graf finished second in the drivers' standings.[24]
No RS Spyder's were entered in the 2010 24 Hours of Le Mans. The 2011 LMP2 regulations rendered the RS Spyder obsolete due to the costs exceeding the LMP2 budget limit.[25]

[TF110]

You did all that to basically say what I just said above your post. I said this-

When the Penske Porsche was around, the LMP2 cars were favorable against the P1's compared to today.

What's different to what you say in your first line?

The ORIGINAL P2 rules were less restrictive than today's rules.

When I said favorable against P1, I am saying they were less restricted and were able to keep pace. Now it's not the case- that's why I said compared to today. I'm agreeing with you, we don't have to argue!

[Spyderman]

Well, it isn't exactly the same. Your statement makes it sound like the the P2 class was some how favored to compete with the P1 cars. (even if you did not mean it to sound that way) This was simply never the case.
The rule makers have always intended that the two classes be separate.
They made a set of rules (the original ones) with that intention in mind. Then the RS Spyder came along and proved that the rules were not sufficient to guarantee a P1 victory in every race, so the rule makers then went ape-**** on the LMP2 regs in order to guarantee that the RS Spyder could no longer achieve over all victory.

[TF110]

I don't know what word you want me to use. I don't see a problem with 'favorable'. I'm not sure how else to word it for you to get what I'm saying. Back then P2s were closer to P1s than they are now. Less weight being the biggest factor IMO. I don't know why they went and messed with it. If there was that much of a problem maybe they should have let the P1s run 850kg instead of cutting back those P2s.

[Speed-King]

yadda yadda yadda.... and what does this all have to do with the real or imagined death of LMP1 for privateers?

[Spyderman]

It really is not about the word usage, but rather the phraseology. Moving on.

Yes, I completely agree. The obsession with keeping the two classes separate was (for me) the start of a mistake that persist today.
I have always favored a two-way approach possible for final victory. One being through a more powerful but heavier P1 type car, and the other a less powerful but lighter car (P2). Obviously my preferences are in the minority (both amongst fans and rule makers, so today we have this current situation that some think is just swell.
I on the other hand, will have to bow to the desires and higher knowledge of those in charge.

[gwyllion]

The idea of multiple concepts being able to challenge for the overall victory was part of the LMP675/LMP900/LMGTP days.

That philosophy was changed with the LMP1/LMP2 rules in 2004. Porsche proved that the ACO made a mistake with the rules because a LMP2 car could win overall. So the ACO gradually imposed extra restrictions over the years and in 2008 they added the following explicit sentences to the rule book.

1.1.1. - "LE MANS" PROTOTYPE category includes :
a/ "LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 1 ("LM"P1): open or closed car, destined more especially to manufacturers.
b/ "LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 2 ("LM"P2): open or closed car, destined more especially to privateers.

That was a direct message to Porsche and Acura that they did not belong in LMP2. Eventually, in 2011, the ACO introduced the cost cap to make it even less attractive for manufacturers to join LMP2.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The idea of multiple concepts being able to challenge for the overall victory was part of the LMP675/LMP900/LMGTP days.

And the ACO started to run away from LMP675 when they saw what it had created in the MG Lola.