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28 Aug 2012, 06:10 (Ref:3126162) | #51 | ||
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28 Aug 2012, 06:23 (Ref:3126165) | #52 | ||
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28 Aug 2012, 07:31 (Ref:3126192) | #53 | |
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28 Aug 2012, 07:38 (Ref:3126195) | #54 | |
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One issue I have over the Fangio, Clark etc... situation, and even more so over the pre-war combatants, is that they raced in era where motorsport was a plaything for extraordinarily rich individuals. Only really in the 1970s and beyond did we start to get people in Formula One who scaled a ladder of sorts earning their stripes along the way... and the fact that people like Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton, Kubica et al originated from more humble beginnings speaks volumes more about their talent and achievement.
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28 Aug 2012, 09:35 (Ref:3126248) | #55 | |||
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28 Aug 2012, 09:59 (Ref:3126253) | #56 | ||
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The reasons why I'm biased towards the Clark and pre-war aces is that death was an astonishingly routine and regular fixture during their era; this demanding an unusual degree of courage and bravery to blend with their skill. Incredible speeds, no seatbelts, no safety provisions, sometimes casualties every second race! I know the wealthy garage owner/executive type would pack out alot of the grid out back then but the first few aces usually were what they are cracked up to be. I remember Schumacher test driving I think it was Alboreto's turbo Ferrari and he got out of even that very uneasily!
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28 Aug 2012, 11:59 (Ref:3126310) | #57 | ||
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In terms of the bravery [or madness depending on your viewpoint], several contemporary drivers have highlighted that... but then we live in a completely different era and whereas extreme danger was an accepted part of the equation in the past, and drivers drove within that hazard, today it isn't and people approach it differently. On the other side, Fangio would probably struggle to get his belly into a modern F1 car... and even if he did... his fitness would be far from what's required to get through a Grand Prix. As I said earlier, stats is all we have to go on when comparing across era. Drivers raced against the best available at their time... some rose above the others and dominated for a period and each of them are among the greats. The greatest is the guy who tops all the stats. There's just no other way to do the exercise, other to base it on a favourite or play out 'what ifs'. |
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28 Aug 2012, 12:20 (Ref:3126321) | #58 | ||
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28 Aug 2012, 12:22 (Ref:3126322) | #59 | |
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28 Aug 2012, 12:37 (Ref:3126331) | #60 | |||
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I like your recollection of Schumi trying the Alboreto Ferrari - I vaguely remember Jacques Villeneuve doing some PR exercise when he was supposed to drive an old car, and he refused because he thought it was too dangerous. No seat belts, or some such. I know where you're coming from when you suggest that Fangio would not be fit enough to drive a contemporary F1 car, G-forces and all, but he was renowned for his stamina in his day. He used to drive prodigious distances in the old Argentinian town-to-town races, and was one of only two drivers (the other was another Argentinian Roberto Mieres) who managed to complete the full distance in the 1955 Argentine GP, which was run in furnace-like temperatures. Most other cars which finished had three or four "shared" drivers. Having said all that, the Old Man was friendly with his local pharmacist, if you know what I mean. Whilst we all criticise the likes of the pay-drivers who trundle around at the back in today's GP races, they are all a damn sight better racers than many of the regulars in the 50s/60s, who were wealthy garage owners or playboy types who liked to show off to the girls. Hence the huge differences in lap times - BCE has got rid of them to make the sport more professional. I still hanker for the old days, though. |
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28 Aug 2012, 15:30 (Ref:3126378) | #61 | ||
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Fangio still has chances?
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28 Aug 2012, 16:02 (Ref:3126394) | #62 | ||
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He was regarded in awe by his peers.If he was on the entry list in a competitive car, the others used to discuss who would come second.
You've only got to read the biographies of them, like Moss or Brooks, to get the picture. It was all so easy for him - the only time he acknowledged he was on his limit was the famous 1957 GermanGP. And to cap it all, he was modest, and a complete gentleman. Some people have it all. |
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28 Aug 2012, 20:14 (Ref:3126522) | #63 | ||
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Damon Hill 19% Farina 15% Hunt 11% Jones 10% Mario Andretti 9% Scheckter 9% Hawthorn 7% Hulme 7% Jacques Villenuve 7% Phil Hill 6% Surtees 5% Reutemann 8% Massa 7% Berger 5% Coultard 5% Barichello 3% |
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28 Aug 2012, 20:42 (Ref:3126542) | #64 | ||
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28 Aug 2012, 20:48 (Ref:3126546) | #65 | ||
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Clark had a much higher win ratio than 34%, remember there were non Championship Grand Prix then, most of the GP drivers competed in them then for the start & prize money.
If you read Dymocks book then he won the same as Prost over a much shorter time, in less GPs. |
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28 Aug 2012, 20:58 (Ref:3126556) | #66 | ||
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28 Aug 2012, 21:16 (Ref:3126562) | #67 | ||
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Drivers below par like Surtees, Brabham, McLaren, Graham Hill, Phil Hill, Ginther, Gurney, later on Hulme & Stewart, so on & so on.
Schumacher definately had below par opposition after the death of Senna. |
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28 Aug 2012, 21:19 (Ref:3126564) | #68 | |||
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Whoa, hold on there, I say hold on there boy! I'm not a Clark "fan" but I hugely respect his ability, and would have loved to have seen him up against an experienced Stewart. And Rindt come to that. In F1 he invariably had the faster car, but had to hope it lasted the race. Those days he had to contend with G.Hill, Surtees and Gurney, all of whom could beat him on their day. In F2 the Lotus wasn't always the cream of the field, and in sports cars the Loti 30 and 40 were pigs to drive. Yes, he was better than the other saloon car boys, but he only did it for the fun, and to keep Chapman happy. At Indy it's fair to say the car was best of the field, but he had to contend with the Indy regulars and the Indy establishment, who in those days did not like "furriners" taking home the prizes. I don't think he had things easy at all - he really was that good. |
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28 Aug 2012, 21:46 (Ref:3126586) | #69 | ||
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Senna is in my top four, but so is Schumacher. They would have had some stupendous battles, but within a couple of years I think Schumacher would have taken the upper hand.
On Clark, he had the unique knack of being able to jump in/on anything with wheels and an engine and make it go quicker than it had any right to go. He didn't need time to get used to it, he could go quickly straight out of the box. Nobody else has had such a raw talent to the level that Clark had. He also - tragically in the end - had an ability to go out and post fastest lap after fastest lap in machinery he didn't entirely trust. Clark's competitors weren't below par. He just made them look that way. |
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28 Aug 2012, 21:53 (Ref:3126590) | #70 | ||
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Interestingly G.Hill had to work at being a world class driver, Clark largely didn't know where his god given came from.
Lotus mechanics used to change brake pads on Clark's car even though they were hardly worn, because Hill's were always worn out, 'it was embarasing' they reckoned ! |
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28 Aug 2012, 21:58 (Ref:3126592) | #71 | ||
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Another thing with Clark - most naturally gifted drivers will happily jump in any old kart and drive it quickly but aren't able to help the team improve the car (Kimi springs to mind). Clark had that natural gift, but he could also explain exactly what the car was doing, and was usually right about what changes would make it faster.
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28 Aug 2012, 22:09 (Ref:3126595) | #72 | |||
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The other driver that always impressed me was Fittipaldi. I was driving at Snetterton the day he had his first test in the Jim Russell F3 and he was a revelation, jaw-dropingly quick. I think he could have gone on to far greater things in F1 had he not made a few bad choices for what he thought were the right reasons. |
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28 Aug 2012, 22:25 (Ref:3126599) | #73 | ||
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To apply your skill, totally exposed to death, with casualties all around you, is something unknown to drivers today. Tragedies, happen today of course but they are rare, thankfully. It was almost like war back in the 'golden era'.
It puts accomplishments of Clark, Fangio and Nuvolari into another cosmos, IMO. We'll never know if Alonso could compete/surpass that because society simply doesn't tolerate that sheer degree of reckless danger. |
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28 Aug 2012, 22:44 (Ref:3126609) | #74 | |||
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However I remember Senna (with some other drivers) did a rallytest in Wales with CCC, several rally cars were used , Senna was very quick IIRC. |
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28 Aug 2012, 23:37 (Ref:3126623) | #75 | ||
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The awe Clark's peers held him in I think speaks for itself. Jack Brabham must certainly have a shot at the best ever, based on all round ability! |
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