[Rules] Grosjean banned for Monza

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by bella

how can sergio canamasas not even get a slap for putting berthon in the wall on the way down to eau rouge at full racing speed, yet grosjean gets a ban for doing that?

baffling. at what point during a race start are we going to start saying to drivers "you have to look in your mirrors just as much as you're looking forward and trying not to drive into people in front of you"? it seems to me that he was punished for the consequences of the accident - that it was spectacular and airbourne, and indeed that it involved championship contenders.

i thought they were meant to punish based on the incident itself?

Quoted for truth. Grosjean's fault? Certainly. Worthy of a race ban ahead of deliberately running into people? Get out of here. Consistency, that's all I'm asking for.

[littleman]

Watched the clip about thirty times now.

At first I thought Hamilton could have backed off to help avoid contact.However, its now clear that the right rear wheel of the Lotus has trapped Hamilton's front left from behind.

If Hamilton had backed off or braked it would have thrown the Lotus airborne with possibly worse consequences.

Definitely Grosjean's fault but don't believe any malice was intended.As for the penalty - maybe a bit harsh, but it does make a very firm statement to every driver from now on.

[Purist]

They may have to throw out half the grid for the following race after the first lap of Monza.

It's the first lap of a Grand Prix, from a standing start, with a short run into the first turn. Sh*t happens! Unless you don't want the guys to race at all for a certain interval after the lights go out, this can and will happen from time to time. Get over it!

The ban is NOT an effective deterrent, because, you'd have to name ONE thing that that ONE driver could have done differently that would have ABSOLUTELY PREVENTED the incident, period!

Here are a few ideas to help. Move the start at Spa back to where it used to be: on the run down to Eau Rouge. Also, don't run the first chicane at Monza on the opening lap of the Italian Grand Prix.

[beau1]

Isn't this ban more due to an accumulation rather than just this one-off incident? He's clearly not been listening and hasn't calmed down.

I like Grosjean but he's been crashing into cars on the first lap of almost every race this year.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I think it was an unfortunate accident. I don't think there was any malice. He was pushing the envelope, but we have all seen plenty of first corner "close calls". It is somewhat part of the sport. I think a race ban is too strong.

Of course it was an unfortunate accident. I don't think anyone believes for a moment that Grosjean intended to cause what he did. But it was pretty crass at the start of a GP. If you leave drivers to be that careless at the most dangerous part of a race and just say afterwards, 'Oh well, no harm done' - it'll keep happening.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by GT3.14

.....because knowing his personality, Lewis was likely disturbed by Maldonado's start and trying to hard to keep up.

Good grief. So, Lewis's personality caused the shunt. Darn, I could have sworn Grosjean had something to do with it.....

Originally Posted by Purist

The ban is NOT an effective deterrent, because, you'd have to name ONE thing that that ONE driver could have done differently that would have ABSOLUTELY PREVENTED the incident, period!

Erm, like Grosjean not moving over on Hamilton......?



I'm outta here. I've said my piece. I'm beginning to doubt what I saw with my own eyes now......

[GT3.14]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

they weren't, so irrelevant.
What do you know of the instincts of a racing driver? how much race experience do you have?

Avoiding an accident is a human instinct, not exclusive to whether one is driving on a public or private surface. I believed it would be a more relatable example as well. I only tried to make sense of my viewpoint by using logic everyone could relate to. I never claimed anyone was wrong or that I was correct or that I was all knowing, I only tried to reason my point of view that Lewis had nothing to gain from holding his ground when Grosjean was 3/4 of a car ahead of him and being a bit too aggressive, it just seemed too obvious it would end in tears. I was also not made aware that I needed to submit evidence of an international competition licence and BRDC or RAC membership to join the forum. Is my humble opinion is not worth the time of others until I stop studying, working weekends, paying off student loans, and go buy a race car? I will evaluate my expertise on the subject before I feel like sharing my thoughts next time.

[deeks6]

To put it mildly, I'm no fan of Hamilton and his usual "I dont back off for anyone" tactics but in this case he had absolutely no chance of doing anything to avoid that- look how fast he veers over and has his back wheel behind Hamiltons front wheel ... it was only going south in a big way after that! This sort of incident is why I have been critical of Hamilton's own past indiscretions because they are dangerous and someone is going to get hurt. He (Grosjean) should have been banned for at least a race so that he thinks next time. Same with LH and Maldonado - should have been banned for some of their dumb stuff.

Its a miracle that Nando didnt lose his head ... I was wishing he didnt finish to give the RBR boys a chance but not that way.

[aneesh99]

I would be up in arms about consistency, but come guys, this is the FIA we're talking about..

[MarkG]

Grosjean is an idiot, I'm glad he's got a ban. To say there was no malice, what's that got to do with it? He's too simple to think of malice and drives like he's in a banger race at starts.

[youngoldy]

He's mucked up.

He's held his hands up.

He's accepted the penalty.

GET OVER IT!

It’s about time the Stewards began to set an example of the rules and regulations being adhered to. The Porsche/GP3/GP2 incidents were just scandalous. No way can young drivers in the lower categories 'look up' to this weekend’s events and think that as no penalties are handed out it can be accepted as an accident. It was mindless, wreckless, dangerous and extremely unfair to put Hamilton, Alonso, Perez and all the others drivers in danger in an accident that was 100% avoidable.

Rant over...

[Purist]

Ayse, that's no guarantee given how severe the accordion effect is into that corner, especially with a bunched field. What would have stopped Hamilton from braking just a tad late, nailing the back of Grosjean, and causing virtually the same incident?

If it was a cumulative penalty, where the hell is Maldonado's one-race ban for his various incidents this year?!

BTW, Romain only had three incidents this year before today. Maldonado basically put him off the road at Melbourne. He and Schmacher had light contact in the rain at Malaysia, and both were able to drive away. And Romain was caught between Schumacher and Massa on the start at Monaco. He struggled with the car in Germany, and had the alternator go at Valencia. Apart than those, Grosjean has a 2nd, two 3rds, a 4th, and two 6ths. I wouldn't bet against him getting a win before the season is out.

The way things have been stated from the official source, it gives an air of the penalty being more political than anything.

"Thinking", in the fashion you fellows are talking about, is not possible. In the heat of the moment, you don't have the time, nor the spare mental resources to be able to consciously do that. It has to be unconscious/automatic, as many things must be with racing drivers.

And I'm quite certain that either Webber or Coulthard, in a Red Bull, nearly took someone's head off at Melbourne a few years back, and I recall VERY little outrage over that one, and the potential hazard involved. So, a little consistency all around would be nice with regards to these things.

As for lower formulae, enforce reasonable penalties there as well! Shouldn't F1 driver already have reasonable, good sense BEFORE they've gotten to F1?! And that's a more realistic way to deal with things, since those feeder series do NOT have the following or that bright, political spotlight on them, so you don't have the outcry when a "star" driver gets penalized.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by youngoldy

He's mucked up.

He's held his hands up.

He's accepted the penalty.

GET OVER IT!

It’s about time the Stewards began to set an example of the rules and regulations being adhered to. The Porsche/GP3/GP2 incidents were just scandalous. No way can young drivers in the lower categories 'look up' to this weekend’s events and think that as no penalties are handed out it can be accepted as an accident. It was mindless, wreckless, dangerous and extremely unfair to put Hamilton, Alonso, Perez and all the others drivers in danger in an accident that was 100% avoidable.

Rant over...

Agree 100%.
Interesting to note that the two other Stewards with Mr Salazar were Gerry Connely and Steve Chopping. Both from Australia. Steve is chief steward for the V8SC series so is used to ajudicating in what is fair, and what isn't, in a : Rubbin is Racin" series.
I think they got this one about right. Let's hope it is a precedent setting example.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by GT3.14

.......I will evaluate my expertise on the subject before I feel like sharing my thoughts next time.

excellent, that will enhance your contribution.

[gttouring]

While it appears severe, this is F1 not club racing, first lap first a corner incidents should be thingsdone early in these drivers ' experience, this is to set a precedent, I feel, it is a big deal to keep video game driving on the simulator,

[mac]

Only rationale for a race ban should be deliberately, or incredibly recklessly causing an accident... I don't think Grosjean did either of those things.

Moving across like that was careless and deserves a penalty - but, if the aftermath wasn't so large (we should just be judging the initial move here - the root cause), would we have seen such a harsh penalty? I think not...

[midgetman]

No mac, sheer stupidity should be penalised too. Unfair driving should be penalised, for too long it's gone unmentioned in the interests of spicing up the show to the extent that certain club kart races have more contact than stock cars.

Gt3.14, next time you're doing 120 in the outside lane of the motorway in a queue of traffic, with the crash barrier on your right and the central verge alongside your wheels, just think about the chaos you'd cause if you swerved or hit the brakes. Then you might review your comment above and realise just why anyone who has actually done that will consider your comments to be foolhardy. Yes I've been there when a race start goes wrong, at a lot lower speed than F1 cars, and believe me it's not a pretty sight.

Real racing is not a Playstation, mate. it's dangerous and there is no reset button. Even if LH had realised RG was zooming in on him, and he did to judge by the jink to the right, there is only so much you can do at that speed in those circumstances. Imagine if he'd braked hard, whoever was up his exhaust pipe would have hit him and those of us of a certain age remember Ricardo Paletti (Google it). And wouldn't you then have crucified him, from the nice safe distance of your armchair, TV and freeze frame YouTube.

[Peat]

I believe the precedent was set in 1994 when they sat Eddie Irvine on his bum for 3 races after he triggered the Interlagos pile-up with a reckless move.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Peat

I believe the precedent was set in 1994 when they sat Eddie Irvine on his bum for 3 races after he triggered the Interlagos pile-up with a reckless move.

And how many times in the last 18 years has that precedent been used?

[Peat]

And Hakkinen later that year (German GP).

When has there been an instance since that would deserve it? i.e: reckless maneuver leading to multiple innocent casulaties.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Peat

And Hakkinen later that year (German GP).

When has there been an instance since that would deserve it? i.e: reckless maneuver leading to multiple innocent casulaties.

I don't have the race-by-race knowledge of F1 to say that, but I would be surpirsed were there not several. Ralf wiped out plenty of cars back in Australia some years ago, and Sato's first season in Jordan was twice as wild as anything Romain has done. I'm not saying it's an unjust penalty, I'm saying it's overreaction compared to what's been handed out in the past AND a lesser crime than many other incidents. Schumi pretty much drove Rubens into the pit wall in Hungary but didn't get a race ban. Lesser crime? I think not.

[Peat]

Yep, the Ralf @ Melbourne one springs to mind. Although he only made contact with 1 car. The rest of the cars crashed into each other in avoidance/reaction.

What was the action on Liuzzi at Monza last year? I can't remember.

[QnickFTW]

Originally Posted by midgetman

No mac, sheer stupidity should be penalised too. .

Probably not with a race ban tho.

Originally Posted by Peat

I believe the precedent was set in 1994 when they sat Eddie Irvine on his bum for 3 races after he triggered the Interlagos pile-up with a reckless move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxQu8-qRU-Q

(from 0:12 sec onwards) Irvine's move was clearly deliberate. I see it as a fundamental difference. He did in actual fact drive into another car intentionally.

[Peat]

I honestly don't know how you make that distinction. Verstappen came from behind, Irvine was moving to avoid the slow moving Bernard who was avoiding an even slower moving Brundle. When he realises that Verstappen is there, he jinks back to the right but the damage is already done.

He displayed lack of awareness, like Grosjean.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by mac

Only rationale for a race ban should be deliberately, or incredibly recklessly causing an accident... I don't think Grosjean did either of those things.

Moving across like that was careless and deserves a penalty - but, if the aftermath wasn't so large (we should just be judging the initial move here - the root cause), would we have seen such a harsh penalty? I think not...

If that had been the first time this season, then i doubt a race ban would have been implemented, but its been on a few occasions this season now. I don't actually think its a bad thing for him, he has awesome skill and speed, he just needs to "tame" it somewhat. Lorenzo got himself a race ban in 250's and look what it did for him.