[Tech Issue] Will F1 be boring in 2014?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

The one thing I believe would actually improve all aspects of Formula 1, for the casual viewer too, is a tightly policed budget cap.

agreed. although it will probably take the sport imploding before all the teams realize the benefits.

Originally Posted by Casper

Like most you don't understand that clever is clever and money, either too much or not enough does not stop them being clever. Red Bull and Vettel would still be at the front no matter what the financial cap was.

in a convoluted way that probably only makes sense in my own head i disagree with that.

at its most basic level i think that the small teams are the most innovative out of necessity. they have nothing to lose while needing to make the largest improvement so they are more willing to take greater chances and think in abstract ways. the double diffuser coming from SuperAguri is an example of that.

unfortunately such innovation is not enough to overcome the size of the big teams' budgets. so for me it is very much a situation where money is far more important because without it it doesnt matter how clever you are hence my belief that a budget cap of some sort is the way forward.

certainly its a scary prospect when you match clever with money though.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Casper

Like most you don't understand that clever is clever and money, either too much or not enough does not stop them being clever. Red Bull and Vettel would still be at the front no matter what the financial cap was.

I think what you fail to grasp is that money buys an awful lot of what you call clever and what most would call resources.

What money buys is the ability to go have more staff going over and over in the finest detail, maybe with different teams of engineers again and again constantly refining, spending more time in the wind tunnel, trying new parts in the sim.

Red Bull claim not to have the largest budget that's true, but they outspend greatly the midfield and lower teams and benefit from much more clout when it comes to the rules being made and interpreted.

I don't think you'll ever have truly close racing until that issue is solved.

[Zico]

Originally Posted by wnut

Watching Vettel drive around on his own would be well worth the price of entry to me!
I want to see the best, and he is the best.

Enjoy him, he is very special! RBR, Newey and Horner and Rocky too!

It is the responsibility of the others to up their game and reach Vettel's level, hate them for their mediocrity and lack of commitment

Vettel has been near faultless and done everything asked of him with the superb car he has been provided with.. but punt him off to any other team and give Alonso, Lewis, Kimi, Nico, Hulk (& a few others) an RB and I'm very confident that we'd witness a similar level of domination from any of them.

For me, Newey (and the rest of the team) just don't get the praise and public recognition they deserve for what they have helped Seb achieve.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Zico

For me, Newey (and the rest of the team) just don't get the praise and public recognition they deserve for what they have helped Seb achieve.

I think you are right that the RBR team don't get the recognition they deserve, however I think Mark Webber is a very good driver and he is probably a good indicator of where the car is!

Vettel is the difference!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Yes it will be boring if it continues like this..

This of course is a stupid comment...

It appears "boring" but it never is really is it !

Next season anything could happen and it probably will..

[Greem]

Will it be boring? No.

Will "you" be bored by it? Yes, no, it depends.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Greem

Will it be boring? No.

Will "you" be bored by it? Yes, no, it depends.

On.......

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

I think what you fail to grasp is that money buys an awful lot of what you call clever and what most would call resources.

What money buys is the ability to go have more staff going over and over in the finest detail, maybe with different teams of engineers again and again constantly refining, spending more time in the wind tunnel, trying new parts in the sim.

Red Bull claim not to have the largest budget that's true, but they outspend greatly the midfield and lower teams and benefit from much more clout when it comes to the rules being made and interpreted.

I don't think you'll ever have truly close racing until that issue is solved.

Oh, I get it alright. What you fail to understand it that the clever ideas do not stop because of budget, the budget is irrelevant. Having no money or a smaller amount of money does not stop the brain working and what most don't understand is that the smaller the budget the more impact that the clever people have. They understand the constraints and how their thinking can work within a budget and how to maximise what they can achieve within a budget. Give RBR and Marrussa the same budget and an empty workshop and ask them to design something specific and I bet RBR comes up with the better answer. If you can grasp that then you begin to understand that a budget cap achieves nothing except making everyone feel all warm and fuzzy.

My prediction is that if a cap was introduced the front running teams would be further in front not pulled back to the pack as everyone seems to want to do. Why would anyone entertain the notion of dumbing down the racing, that is just plain stupid and guaranteed to erode the interest and popularity of the series. What needs to be done is just the opposite, raise the standard of those who are not competitive to a level where they add to the spectacle of the racing. Those that are paid the big dollars should be moving in that direction, that's what they get paid the money for. If they don't they won't be around as the series will founder in mediocrity.

[Zico]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think you are right that the RBR team don't get the recognition they deserve, however I think Mark Webber is a very good driver and he is probably a good indicator of where the car is!

Vettel is the difference!

I don't see it that way. I could be talking utter mince ... but I see Mark as a solid 'old school' driver while Seb being more technically minded and better suited to a very technical Newey car, has the car built around him.

Back to the OP's original question- I guess it depends on your outlook but for the pessimistic me, if the tyres continue to be constructed of plastacine combined with possible extreme fuel saving requirements, it will be dull no matter what..

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by garcon

The only thing we can say for certain is that whatever actually happens a sizeable contingent will bitterly complain that it is boring because their favourite driver isn't winning, or because a driver they refuse to rate is winning.

Too true.

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

The one thing I believe would actually improve all aspects of Formula 1, for the casual viewer too, is a tightly policed budget cap.

Yes it would, but the general consensus (that's Red Bull and Ferrari) don't want that to happen.

Originally Posted by Zico

Back to the OP's original question- I guess it depends on your outlook but for the pessimistic me, if the tyres continue to be constructed of plastacine combined with possible extreme fuel saving requirements, it will be dull no matter what..

I like F1 no matter what happens, or doesn't happen, as the case may be.

Pirelli were asked by the teams and the FIA to make tyres that degraded artificially, and so they did. This was the result of a specific race in 2010 that received not only very high praise from this forum, but also from the majority of F1 forums. It's what the fans wanted, apparently.

With regard to fuel saving. When the turbo cars of the eighties had 1400 bhp to play with in qualifying, this then had to be cut back drastically for the race to 8 or 900 bhp (which also gave the Cosworth engined cars a fighting chance of staying on the same lap), because you can only get so much fuel into an F1 car without it turning into an obvious fire hazard. So, all through the race the cars had to manage the fuel that they had so as not to run out of fuel, as so many did, during the race. Same old same old, as far as I'm concerned.

[JeremySmith]

I prefer your old avatar...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I prefer your old avatar...

Many have said the same, but you'll all just have to get used to it.

That was actually the last truck I drove before I became ill. I do like Scanias. It wasn't my usual job, I just helped out now and then.

But that's all very boring. Back to F1.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Many have said the same, but you'll all just have to get used to it.

That was actually the last truck I drove before I became ill. I do like Scanias. It wasn't my usual job, I just helped out now and then.

But that's all very boring. Back to F1.

Then I like it...

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Yes it would, but the general consensus (that's Red Bull and Ferrari) don't want that to happen.

Show me the thinking that will achieve any different result than what we see now. RBR will still be up front followed by the pack behind. Prove to us that it would be any different, you can't. Why dumb it down and change things when you, Newey or me can't provide proof that the entertainment value will be increased. It is a presumption here that racing would be improved but I have yet to see where and how that can happen. I ask the question, can someone prove that a cap will improve things? all that anyone can come up with is some airy fairy assumptions and no facts.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

Show me the thinking that will achieve any different result than what we see now. RBR will still be up front followed by the pack behind. Prove to us that it would be any different, you can't. Why dumb it down and change things when you, Newey or me can't provide proof that the entertainment value will be increased. It is a presumption here that racing would be improved but I have yet to see where and how that can happen. I ask the question, can someone prove that a cap will improve things? all that anyone can come up with is some airy fairy assumptions and no facts.

There is one thing that I can guarantee you, if the FIA or CVC try to implement a budget cap or and any sort of audit process the manufacturers will run for the doors. They are very protective over their internal information!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

There is one thing that I can guarantee you, if the FIA or CVC try to implement a budget cap or and any sort of audit process the manufacturers will run for the doors. They are very protective over their internal information!

Can you imagine Ferrari allowing an auditor to look at their accounts. I would buy tickets to that conversation.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

Can you imagine Ferrari allowing an auditor to look at their accounts. I would buy tickets to that conversation.

That's gold!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Casper

all that anyone can come up with is some airy fairy assumptions and no facts.

But that's all there can be. What facts are there to be had in respect of something that hasn't happened?

[andy666]

Will 2014 be boring ? I predict not for the first half of the season , ERS failures ( might aswell park up and go home , doing a "Kimi") Engine or turbo failures , but with the restriction on number of "power units" I hope not . Should failures be classed as exciting ? Probably not . Pirelli....... I predict they produce good durable tyres due to the extra torque from the new units , tyres that the drivers will not have to manage so much and can race hard on , Pirelli will realise this and then change them mid season to bring back excessive tyre management . 2 DRS zones or maybe even 3 at certain tracks But who knows ?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

But that's all there can be. What facts are there to be had in respect of something that hasn't happened?

I rest my case. i have a theory, F1 has been regulated to death in what has been a fruitless pursuit of something that has never been defined. In times past it was an engine limit formula full stop. They even allowed six wheels fer god's sake and no one even blinked. The fan car was a bit much but when a car is firing shrapnel at drivers something had to be done.

You can all stop rabbiting on about a spending cap as it will never happen thank god.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

I rest my case. i have a theory, F1 has been regulated to death in what has been a fruitless pursuit of something that has never been defined. In times past it was an engine limit formula full stop. They even allowed six wheels fer god's sake and no one even blinked. The fan car was a bit much but when a car is firing shrapnel at drivers something had to be done.

You can all stop rabbiting on about a spending cap as it will never happen thank god.

They banned the six wheelers with four wheels at the rear from Williams and March immediately when they found out how fast they were in off season practice.

Andretti has admitted that the shrapnel story was a lie made up to get rid of the Brabham in that season.
Brabham could have run the car for the rest of the season, but Bernie who was head of Brabham capitulated; much to the disgust of Gordon Murray; because he was trying to pull FOCA together at the time, and dare we say, trying to get the teams to sign away the media rights to F1, and we all know how that worked out!

Bet Murray didn't get the bonus he should have at the end of the year either!

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I like F1 no matter what happens, or doesn't happen, as the case may be.

Originally Posted by Marbot

Same old same old, as far as I'm concerned.

Spot on. Give that man a doughnut.

Looking back over the 30+ years I've been watching F1, the problem of 'boredom' is a relatively recent phenomenon. Nowadays it's primarily, as far as I can see, because the races last more than about 15 minutes and there's a chance that not much happens in the 15 minutes that the attention-span-starved younger generation of fans happen to be paying attention.

That said, each major change has seen a plethora of "It's not the same as it used to be" cries, either in the press or more recently on Da Intarwebz.

Of course it isn't the same as it used to be. If it was, teams would still be building cars made of greenhouse tubing which folded in on themselves at the earliest opportunity. Clark, Hunt, Mansell would never have had drives. Engines would still be 8 litre behemoths running on aviation fuel, and drivers would chop and change cars during races if theirs broke.

While the 2013 season has hardly been a classic in terms of actual tooth-and-claw racing, we've seen a team and a driver at the pinnacle of performance. Looking back again at that 30 year window, this has happened several times and a lot of the people shouting about how dull F1 is these days look back at those days - the Williams years, the McLaren years, the dominance of the Cosworth DFV engine, Clark & Chapman's genius period - and say that "those were the days, it was brilliant then".

It was the same then as it is now - a multi-faceted, multi-layered, intriguing technically led sport with a layer of glamour, politics and money over the top of it. Sometimes people dominated. Was it boring back then?

2014 will be a good year...





...I hope

[wnut]

Alfa won 9 of the first 11 GPs 1951 / 52 the other 2 being Indy, so really they won 9 of 9.

Ferrari won 7 of 8 races in 1952, oh the boredom!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Casper

Show me the thinking that will achieve any different result than what we see now. RBR will still be up front followed by the pack behind. Prove to us that it would be any different, you can't. Why dumb it down and change things when you, Newey or me can't provide proof that the entertainment value will be increased. It is a presumption here that racing would be improved but I have yet to see where and how that can happen. I ask the question, can someone prove that a cap will improve things? all that anyone can come up with is some airy fairy assumptions and no facts.

I wasn't looking at it from an entertainment point of view, I was looking at it from the point of view that more teams and/or engine manufacturers would be more likely to become part of F1, or at least show more interest in it, if budgets had a more reasonable limit, if not an exactly equal one.

But you're right. Clearly if nothing changes, then Red Bull are destined to win every championship from now until the end of the century because that's what's always happened, even before Red Bull came into F1.

I can think of a few reasons why Red Bull might not win both championships next season and none of them have anything to do with budget.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by andy666

Should failures be classed as exciting ? Probably not .

Except when we get a good old turbo induced barbie going . As long as nobody get toasted in the process.