Montoya blows it again

[garcon]

Originally posted by pole2pole
I will stand by montoya as well. The way i look at this chop thing at the start is well montoya has to do something lets face it the ferraris are what..about 2seconds a lap faster than the williams all he is doing here is fighting back ok he may be fighting a no win battle but at least he is fighting. If montoya had a car with the same performance as the ferrari the championship would be his. Lets not forget that montoya holds the record for the fastest lap in f1 history i bet that makes ferrari mad

Look I know this all very subjective and all that, and that everybody has the right to support their heros, but really, come on!



I fully agree with your first point - he's in front, he has to do something to stay in front, and he has to take the fight to them.

But to say the WDC would be JPM's if he had a comparable car is utter nonsense. If that were the case, even with the car he's got he'd have a string of podiums rather than a mixed bag of lower points finishes and DNFs.

Oh yes, and Ferrari really must be mad! The Manufacturers' Title and a 1-2 in the Drivers' Title must be scant consolation compared with Montoya's fastest ever lap!

[z2252314]

but my point is, he didn't "hit" them (is that better?)

Our disagreeing view is perhaps due to your lack of coverage. Perhaps you where watching a different feed to me? Or perhaps you were channel surfing while it happened? I hope my tone doesnt come across as mocking (I've got pretty bad coverage here in OZ too!). Anyway, if you get to see some highlights, you will see Juan locking up and going right across the gravel trap not just the kerbs. Once you see this, you will understand that Juan didnt just hit curbs today (riding curbs is by the way normal at Monza..... riding gravel traps Isn't). This, in my opinion contributed to his later failure, which Im sure will be revealed by Williams post race.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by garcon



But to say the WDC would be JPM's if he had a comparable car is utter nonsense.

To say that he wouldn't be WDC without seeing what he could do in the best car is also utter nonsense.

Originally posted by garcon


If that were the case, even with the car he's got he'd have a string of podiums rather than a mixed bag of lower points finishes and DNFs.

With the car he's got, he has got a string of podiums, 7, in actual fact, 4 seconds and 3 thirds, add that to 2 forths and a fifth, aswell as 7 pole positions, and i don't think he's done too bad. With the exception of the Ferrari drivers, i believe he's gained more podium finishes than any other driver.

[Red]

Originally posted by garcon
Oh yes, and Ferrari really must be mad! The Manufacturers' Title and a 1-2 in the Drivers'

Funny and interesting stuff if you pay attention to the WCC standings. Ferrari have the same amount of points as Williams, McLaren, Renault, Sauber, Jaguar and Jordan put together.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by z2252314


Our disagreeing view is perhaps due to your lack of coverage.

Don't think so fella, i was watching sky, and thats proberbly the best coverage out there. Anyway, you altered what i said to suit your own arguement.

you quoted me as saying

Originally posted by z2252314

but my point is, he didn't "hit" them (is that better?)

when in actual fact i said

Originally posted by mr v


he didn't "hit" them (is that better?) any harder than the other drivers out there today.

Please feel free to quote me, but when you do, please quote the complete sentance, not just what you want to suit your own gain

[Red]

Originally posted by mr v
To say that he wouldn't be WDC without seeing what he could do in the best car is also utter nonsense.

To say that he would is just as meaningless! Fact is that he doesn't. Win the championship AND drive the same car as Schumacher

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Red
To say that he would is just as meaningless!

I agree, and i didn't make the original statement, someone else did, to which i referred to.

[Red]

Ok, so BOTH statements hold as much value!

[garcon]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the reference I made earlier to a statement he made referring to my earlier statement.

Or something.

Both statements hold equal value - i.e. none.

You can't possibly say that JPM definitely would win the WDC in a comparable car, but you can't say he definitely wouldn't either! He might, but it's all hypothetical.

Nurse?! :confused:

[Red]

Originally posted by garcon
You can't possibly say that [...]

Garcon, buddy! I didn't see you much in F1 forum, mostly in the Gravel Trap, but stick around and you'll find unimagined things that one can say!

[Mr V]

Originally posted by garcon

You can't possibly say that JPM definitely would win the WDC in a comparable car, but you can't say he definitely wouldn't either! He might, but it's all hypothetical.

Exactly! :confused: :confused:

[z2252314]

Please feel free to quote me, but when you do, please quote the complete sentance, not just what you want to suit your own gain

Ok, I dont see how it misrepresented what you said, in fact I think I saved you from more shame. The second part of your comment is more ridiculous than the first. Anyway, let me try again.

he didn't "hit" them (is that better?) any harder than the other drivers out there today.

Ok, so what your saying is that Juan did no worse than Michael, Rubens, Eddie, etc.? Well, unless my non-digital coverage missed something I beg to differ.

I did not see Rubens miss a corner and run across a gravel trap.
I did not see Michael miss a corner and run across a gravel trap.
I did not see Eddie miss a corner and run across a gravel trap.
I did not see Trulli miss a corner and run across a gravel trap.
I did not see Button miss a corner and run across a gravel trap.
etc.

Mr V, do you actually know the incident im referring to? I fail to understand how you can say all other drivers did just as bad. He didnt just kick up some dirt, or run wide, he outbreaked himself and went completely across a gravel trap. This led Martin and James to state that the immediate drop in performance after the incident was due to the incident described.

P.S If you can tape a digital feed (I am clueless about digital tv) then I suggest you go back and have a second look (lap 5 was it?).

[Mr V]

Originally posted by z2252314




Mr V, do you actually know the incident im referring to? .............................I suggest you go back and have a second look (lap 5 was it?).

This is where were getting our wires crossed then Z, as i wasn't talking about the incident on lap 5, i was talking about the incident that damaged JPM's suspension on lap whatever it was!

[z2252314]

This is where were getting our wires crossed then Z, as i wasn't talking about the incident on lap 5, i was talking about the incident that damaged JPM's suspension on lap whatever it was!

Ok, cool. But dont you think his bumping across the gravel trap may have contributed to the suspension failure later on. (its cool if you dont agree, its just my opinion).

[Mr V]

Originally posted by z2252314


But dont you think his bumping across the gravel trap may have contributed to the suspension failure later on.

Z, just watched the bit that you were talking about again, and i believe that going across the gravel like he did (he locked up a brake that put him off) was enough to contribute to him losing his barge board, which we saw a couple of corners later (2nd Lesmo) but i don't believe that it was enough to contribute to his suspension failure.

[BootsOntheSide]

"I will be very suprised if Frank doesnt sit down"

I think we'll all be surprised if he stands up!

But seriously, I think Montoya was at fault today. Maybe the frustration of being as fast as Michael but not having the hardware to prove it on a Sunday, and seeing the poles mount up with no reward, and its causing him to occasionally overdrive. Even James Allen, usually guilty of fanboy worship of Montoya, was critical today, which'd be like the Pope saying God should've made the sky a lighter shade of blue.

[TimD]

Originally posted by z2252314


I did not see Michael miss a corner and run across a gravel trap.

I heard that he did precisely that whilst behind a Jordan this afternoon. Not having watched the coverage, I couldn't be sure. Anyone see this? Or was it in the imagination of the BBC radio commentary team?

[Peter Mallett]

On the subject of JPM I need say no more. On the subject of Ralf not being able to overtake (not this thread). I'm sure somebody could say something.

[eatapc]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
This post is just plain dumb, and I am attacking the poster! FLAME BAIT!!!!!!!

I agree, and it's threads that start childishly like this that make it sometimes dispiriting to check in at 10/10ths. I remind people that there is a "warn" button.

[Peter Mallett]

Sorry Eat person. I don't see anything wrong with differing opinions. Nobody's answered Tim's queastion (which appears to be quite valid and honest).

And JPM once again ............ nope I've said it before.

[eatapc]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Sorry Eat person. I don't see anything wrong with differing opinions.

I respect your point of view, but I still consider the original post to be against the spirit and letter of the forum's rules.

"Admit it everybody - he's hopeless. I'd be amazed if he ever wins another GP let alone the WDC. He is, frankly, brainless. He gets a demo from the red cars every two weeks and still has no idea how to win a race." -- garcon

That's not the kind of informed opinion I come hear to read, and it certainly fits the common definition of flame bait.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by eatapc
I respect your point of view, but I still consider the original post to be against the spirit and letter of the forum's rules.

Thank you. And we are both entitled to our opinions.

Originally posted by eatapc
"Admit it everybody - he's hopeless. I'd be amazed if he ever wins another GP let alone the WDC. He is, frankly, brainless. He gets a demo from the red cars every two weeks and still has no idea how to win a race." -- garcon.

But I tend to agree so I don't see it as flame bait.

Originally posted by eatapc
That's not the kind of informed opinion I come hear to read, and it certainly fits the common definition of flame bait.

If so then I guess every post on this forum can be seen as flame bait.

I once mentioned the phrase "sense of humour". Too many people (not necessarily you Eatapc) look for the flame in a topic before actually reading the content. It's a bit Orwellian to me. 1984 and all that. Relax is my advice.

BTW. I'm breaking my own rules here beacause I don't want to be an ersatz policeman.

Finally. If you don't like the topic you can always ignore it. I ignore loads of posters and topics.

[R]

This thread came within an inch of being pulled after the way in which it started out. Since then, it has provoked some good discussion.

So it stays - if the focus can be moved away from the opening posts and placed back on where the discussion was a few posts ago.

[Mr V]

Well said R, as a contributer throughout the entire thread, i didn't personally like the way it started, but must say that i have enjoyed the discussions throughout other than that!

[eatapc]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
I once mentioned the phrase "sense of humour". Too many people (not necessarily you Eatapc) look for the flame in a topic before actually reading the content. It's a bit Orwellian to me. 1984 and all that. Relax is my advice.

I agree with you here. I did re-read the "offending" (to me) post three times looking for a sense of humor, looking for any evidence of a "wink" or a tongue in cheek. I didn't see it, although the poster may have intended it.

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Finally. If you don't like the topic you can always ignore it. I ignore loads of posters and topics.

Yep, sometimes I find myself doing more ignoring than reading. My feeling is that there are good reasons for the rules against posting flame bait, and I feel that for the good of the forum it should be nipped in the bud. I'm thankfully not an administrator, so I just call 'em as I see 'em and let the able admins do their good work.

R is right that many thoughtful responses were submitted after this thread's very unpromising start, so those members who kept their cool should be commended.