European GP

[flor]

btw, anyone knows if heidfeld overtook someone or was everything because of strategy?

[R]

I thought the rule said that it could be done, Jay? I'm saying I don't agree with it. I've never seen this happen in F1 before, and I'm against it for the reasons I've stated above. If the car was deemed to be in an unsafe position, there was a crane there readily available to hoist it to safety.

[Irv the Swerve]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Well, if the car was well and truly beached, then that new rule is really awful and needs to be pitched out the window immediatly. You shouldn't be able to re-join the race except under your own power and traction.

Sense as usual from Mr. Janotta, but rules are rules and Mick maximised everything as usual.
Somehow though, I think he'll be hurting from that lesson that the Monster dished out, and thats the way it should be.
I wonder if Ron will launch an appeal.

[Hammerwerfer]

If you watched earlier, it was obvious that Alonso was brake testing. He did it a few times to ruin DC's chances at getting a run at him off slower corners. DC had to brake too much too early to avoid him. He had to lock up a couple times. It was unsporting and dangerous stuff that you see in F3 or FF, not F1!

[Lee Janotta]

Because the World Championship's at stake, Jay. Honestly, I don't think it's a great idea in other series, but the stakes aren't as great. But in F1, with the eyes of the world watching every move made, you can't have these questions of favoritism.

Then again, when you've got Nazis running the sport, it's hard _not_ to bring it into disrepute.

[Jay]

"could" sounds very grey indeed...not sure about that then. I guess it's a rule that needs to be clarified one way or the other.

It's just that in most cases it's safer and easier to give a car a push-start if it's not damaged. The marshalls were able to get out of there a lot more quickly than if they'd had to use the crane. And in some cases, the crane might not have been so available - that's another reason most other series don't have this rule, not as many cranes.

[Damon]

Schu got lucky but it was the safest thing to do. If all four wheels had found their way into the gravel then perhaps it would have been different, but as it was, removing the car would have meant deploying the safety car and we don't want that.

[R]

Lee, that nazi reference wasn't really necessary, was it?

Life goes on, I just didn't think the marshals were allowed to push-start a car. Well, the rule has been quoted here, so I suppose it is allowed. I just hope any other driver can receive the same kind of assistance should the same situation occur. If Kimi Raikkonen or Juan Pablo Montoya beaches it at Hockenheim, with the engine still running, I will expect the marshals to assist with a push-start just as rapidly as they did for TGF, so that the driver can rejoin the race.

And what's all this talk about Alonso "brake testing"?!? He was having brake problems, that was why he was braking early. Didn't you see how quickly TGF caught him?

[Jay]

I think the rule also speaks a bit to the 'F1' attitude of punishing as much as possible. If you make a mistake or your car has a problem you should be punished to the max, while if you win you should get the most over everyone else. The new rules have change this a bit, but the attitude still seems a very F1 thing...at least compared to the lower formulae.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by R
Lee, that nazi reference wasn't really necessary, was it?

Well, it has nothing to do with the Germans...

[Irv the Swerve]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Because the World Championship's at stake, Jay. Honestly, I don't think it's a great idea in other series, but the stakes aren't as great. But in F1, with the eyes of the world watching every move made, you can't have these questions of favoritism.

Then again, when you've got Nazis running the sport, it's hard _not_ to bring it into disrepute.

A good post followed by tripe.
There can be no questions of favouritism about this one. The rules have been changed. He obeyed the rules. End of.

I'm no fan of the Bernie/max collaboraton running the show at the moment, but that staement requires some sort of back up, which I presume will not be forthcoming.

[Jay]

Even if you follow the rules to a tee, they haven't changed. His engine was not restarted. I just hate all this bashing of the marsalls... I can almost guarantee you they were just thinking 'What's the easiest and safest way to deal with it' and I think they found it.

[f1manoz]

Let's see:

Ralf was on fire all race (not literally of course) He got quicker as the race progressed and it's a shame Kimi retired as it would have been an interesting battle. But Ralf kept the car in one piece and was faster than anyone else most of the time.

JPM's move on TGF was perfect and forced a mistake from the German. Other than that, he started slowly but, like his team-mate, got faster as the race progressed. A great Williams 1-2.

Rubens was relatively quiet in 3rd but it's another podium at least.

Alonso was clearly having troubles and I vehemently disagree with those who say he was brake-testing. No-one is that stupid to do that to another competitor. What happened with DC is that DC simply out-braked himself. He would not have made the corner with the speed he was carrying.

TGF was lucky to finish in 5th and surely they'll have to have a clarification of the rules.

Webber in 6th and Button in 7th were solid if unspectacular drivers.

HEIDFELD in 8th would have to go down as drive of the day. Come from last place and pitlane start to grab the final point. Mega!!

Kimi was looking dominant while out front and looked set for a second win but that damned Mercedes when it leads at the Nurburgring has a habit of blowing up.

Trulli just has no luck.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Irv the Swerve
I'm no fan of the Bernie/max collaboraton running the show at the moment, but that staement requires some sort of back up, which I presume will not be forthcoming.

I'll take this to private messages, since it's not an appropriate debate for the public forum.

[R]

Originally posted by Jay
I just hate all this bashing of the marsalls...

Jay, I am not bashing the marshals! If that's what it looked like, then I apologize. That was not the intention!

It's the fact that this was allowed I disagree with. And of course favouritism can (and will) come into play. This happened in Germany - and we're all humans, after all. We all have our favourites and our dislikes, and it comes into play whether we intend it to or not. It's a fact of life. No one is ever 100% objective, I believe. 99% maybe. But not 100%. And that 1% could be what sways your decision.

[Toth]

A lot of germans like Mercedes and BMW. Raikkonen has quite a lot of fans in germany.

Regarding Alonso's brake testing. It's of course always possile that his behaviour was due to brake problems. But the body language in the post-race interview gave it away I think. When the incident with DC came up he smiled, and it was a naughty smile.

Lauda had the same smile when he discussed the incident.

It was a great win for BMW-Willams ,great as well for ralfie.this also show that the team is back into the world Championship.feel bad for DC and JV,as both drivers needed good runs.lookin foward to france!

[R]

Originally posted by Toth
A lot of germans like Mercedes and BMW. Raikkonen has quite a lot of fans in germany.

Was that why we heard such a large cheer from the crowd when Kimi's engine went up in smoke? Biggest cheer of the afternoon (and not a very sporting thing to do, I think). Besides, it doesn't take "a lot of" to push a car back onto the circuit. It only takes a few.

Didn't see that interview, Toth, so I can't comment other than what I previously said. DC was going way too fast to be able to make the corner, so maybe that's why Fernando smiled. DC brought his retirement from the race on himself.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Montoya's move was superb, one of the greatest I've ever seen,

You really should go to a few more races.

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
and Michael choked under the pressure. The rules seem to say that, if the car's in a dangerous position, it can be pushed by the marshals, and if its still running can continue. Taht seems a little unfair, as it's largely down to the luck of not going too far into the gravel, but the rules have worked in Mcihael's favour 9for a change...)

Great drive by Ralf. I'd've given him the Driver Of the Day award, rather than Monotya, because he was out in front and didn't have to voetake anyone 9all tthe smae, I hope people now realise that Montoya has far more guts in overtaking moves, Ralf would never try that on anyone).

Alonso's driving was fine by me as well. He was defending the position aggressively, but didn't appear to brake test DC, he meerely went to the inside to cover the line. He had to brake earlier because his brakes were failing,a s the rapid way Michael caught him on the final lap proves.

Trulli out of luck again, but he lost the place to Alonso during the first round of stops, again showing that his racing ability is a little lacking.

Toyota were a right royal disaster again, whcih I'm pleased about.

Well some back handed compliments there Boots. Don't you think it a little strange that the most brilliant driver in the universe ever couldn't pass Barrichello and indeed made him look good until the second pit stop?

No, I thought not.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Montoya's move was superb, one of the greatest I've ever seen, and Michael choked under the pressure.

Thats the nub of the matter - the great man aint so great - he really does fold a lot under presure, cant wait for Kimi to get a car thats on the same level as the Ferrari regularly. He'll be reitred long before the end of 06 !!

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Well, it has nothing to do with the Germans...

Well Max's dad was a well known Nazi of course.

[Damon]

Please take note Peter that not all the JPM fans have put forward the same view as Boots, and so the rest of us would be grateful not to be tared with the same, broad, "jpm fan", brush in the future. Some of us recognise a good job well done.

[Peter Mallett]

whilst I am entitled to my opinion I was really only addressing Boots. ....