Honda or Toyota?

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan

Oh, and rumours are that 2004 will see David Richards buy out BAT's holding in BAR.

like the man said.. LINK PLEASE!!!



i never knew richards has 3-400 million dollar to invest.
i rather suspect honda or red bull taking over.
although roebuck murmured in one of his columns( the printed one ) that honda is gonna stop end of 2004 orso.

[Mark Webber]

Red Bull doubt it there Jag bound

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally posted by mansellmania
like the man said.. LINK PLEASE!!!



i never knew richards has 3-400 million dollar to invest.
i rather suspect honda or red bull taking over.
although roebuck murmured in one of his columns( the printed one ) that honda is gonna stop end of 2004 orso.

Settle down, dear boy, settle down. I read in in this month's F1 Racing, as it goes.

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by Mark Webber
Red Bull doubt it there Jag bound

red bull want an all american team.
i somehow doubt that gonna happen with a british carbrand
(eventhough its Ford nowadays).

[BSchneiderFan]

But sponsoring Jaguar and hoping that Ford lose interest and offload the team might be a shrewd strategy.

[Mark Webber]

spot on Bschneider plus everyone knows Jaguar F1 is Ford so the yanks shouldn't mind its more likely to happen then buying a Brit team with a Jap carbrand.
Lets face it Red Bull is already at Jag and for a few years to methinks (ala Mr Klien)

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by Mark Webber
spot on Bschneider plus everyone knows Jaguar F1 is Ford so the yanks shouldn't mind its more likely to happen then buying a Brit team with a Jap carbrand.
Lets face it Red Bull is already at Jag and for a few years to methinks (ala Mr Klien)

ill be suprised if that really happens.
The ford money is important but iirc Cosworth is not owned by Ford.Its a british company.
Jaguar racing is 3 companies in one.

I wonder if red bull is man enough to built an all new team and base it in the US of A

[neilap]

Originally posted by Wrex
Neilap, you must admit you are a little oversensative when the names Honda or Toyota are brought up.

Me, sensative, never! Either way that finished now. I do admire the fact that Honda is trying to do things their way as much as possible instead of just paying others to do it.

The only advantage I give Toyota is in finacese. They have everyone beaten there. What amazes me the most is that Toyota has been pretty poor for the first two years (actually three) but everyone seems to think they are making strides. Guess its me

I dont like predictions so I will see how they match up on equal footing.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by mansellmania
red bull want an all american team.
i somehow doubt that gonna happen with a british carbrand
(eventhough its Ford nowadays).

Isn't Ford American?

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by neilap
Me, sensative, never! Either way that finished now. I do admire the fact that Honda is trying to do things their way as much as possible instead of just paying others to do it.

The only advantage I give Toyota is in finacese. They have everyone beaten there. What amazes me the most is that Toyota has been pretty poor for the first two years (actually three) but everyone seems to think they are making strides. Guess its me

I dont like predictions so I will see how they match up on equal footing.

you can be happy that back in 98 everybody got scared of the BAR hype and their unlimited budget but in the end they are still not a top team.

BAR got 8 points first year and 20 the 2nd.. toyota got 2 points and this year 17 but thats with the new pointscoring system.

not a lot between them id say.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by mansellmania


BAR got 8 points first year and 20 the 2nd...

Mansellmania, i suggest you update any season reviews you may have, in BAR's first season, 1999, the got exactly 0 points not 8

[Mark Webber]

you could say they have peaked in 00 and have slumped since
you Could say that

[Mr V]

You could, but that slump still beat Jaguar

[Mark Webber]

true as they say 1 mans work is never done

[Mr V]

Well hope jag hire a second driver that can take it to him then

[Mark Webber]

He He He you are always good for a laugh V

[mansellmania]

Prove it!! The only thing you know about the power of the Toyota is what the PR people say. Toyotas performance did nothing to illustrate engine power. Everything looked like light fuel loads. I know what Shuhei Nakamoto, Engineering Director, Honda Racing Development said at the start of the season and at the end. He stated that weight was thier biggest handicap. He also stated the motor was above 19k which suggests hp was over 900.

I found a nice piece in the last autosport issue december 18/25 2003.

technical revieuw with the likes of mark hughes/alan jenkins and giorgio piola:
"
.. in its performance characteristics the toyota TF 103 was diametrically opposed to the renault.It had excellent engine power- close to BMW and perhaps on par with ferrari by the end of the year- but a chassis that disliked kerbs and abused its tyres.
It was generally a quicker qualifier than BAR, but probably only because of its michelin tyres..."

they go on about how honda missed the boat and created problems for the 2003 BAR design:

"the BAR 005 was a sweet handling-handling, very compliant car with good downforce borne of its long wheelbase.technical director Geoff Willis was slightly reluctant to bring the wheelbase down because he was unconvinced about wether its honda engine would be on target with weight when the car was conceived( a short-wheelbase car with a heavy engine isnt good news for turn-in stability).His concern was well placed.
THE HONDA V10'S WHERE TOO HEAVY, NOT POWERFULL ENOUGH AND UNRELIABLE!!!!."

more bad news from the honda engine side:

"
The jordan ej13 had virtually zero development and lacked front-end grip, overall downforce and reliability, particularly with regard to its suspension. With its old-spec 72-degree cosworth engine( the jaguars was 90), its centre of gravity couldnt aproach that of cars with more recent engines.The change to this from the much heavier honda unit enabled the team to move the weight forward, but there was not enough cash in the kitty to optimise this with testing.."

you did say the honda was heavy but MUCH heavyer than the old spec jaguar suprises me.

[BARrouette]

Originally posted by Mark Webber
you could say they have peaked in 00 and have slumped since
you Could say that

Yep that is true.
Maby because of a Mr D.R.

[BootsOntheSide]

Once you bear in mind that in 2000 Renault weren't involved, or Toyota, and jaguar were still learnign, I'd say BAR are on their way to peaking now. In 2003 they had much stronger opposition, as well as internal rivalry among the drivers and a tyre disadvantage, yet they still trounced 5 of the other 9 teams, including Toyota's massively-funded effort. I'd call that progress.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally posted by BARrouette
Yep that is true.
Maby because of a Mr D.R.

Maby (maybe?) in the sense of "in no way". Dave Richards took over at the end of 2002, and, to my mind, 2003 has been BAR's most convincing year. But hey! You hate Dave Richards. This is, I assume, in no way connected to the issue of a Canadian driver formerly in his employ.

[BARrouette]

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan
Maby (maybe?) in the sense of "in no way". Dave Richards took over at the end of 2002, and, to my mind, 2003 has been BAR's most convincing year. But hey! You hate Dave Richards. This is, I assume, in no way connected to the issue of a Canadian driver formerly in his employ.

It`s not that i hate DR i just dont agree with his decisions like race strategy ,the 2 drivers had different strategy at all time and most of the time Button had the best strategy.Just look at indy...By the way i dont hate Button at all.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by BARrouette
It`s not that i hate DR i just dont agree with his decisions like race strategy ,the 2 drivers had different strategy at all time and most of the time Button had the best strategy.Just look at indy...By the way i dont hate Button at all.

But, are you saying that DR had the last word in the stratergy? Wasn't Jacques meant to be the most outspoken driver out there? Surely, if he disagreed with DR, he'd have put him straight, compromised and at least, had the stratergy semi to his liking?

[Wrex]

Lets get back on topic people. This thread is about Honda and Toyota and there individual desire to become champions.

It has nothing to do with Ex-BAR drivers, Jaguar, Montoya, or Space travel.

[GTRMagic]

Honda have always built 'fat' engines. Anyone remember the Honda V12 that was heavier and had less power than the season before...

Luckily it was in a McLaren, and that Senna still wrung the neck of the thing to win...

Although he did do that in a customer Ford too

This is perhaps where the conservatism of the Japanese comes into play... always mindful of errors, and the usual happy dance of finger pointing that goes on when things arent working right, a heavy engine is a reliable engine... well sometimes depends whose car its in...

Funny that the other 'Honda' program in the IRL doesnt seem to have these problems... oh, thats right.. its an Ilmor

[Led ZeppF1]

Toyota was in the right direction. Honda? I don't think so.