Andy Rouse 86 BTCC XR4Ti

[racer69]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Interesting thought that. Nobody thought anything would ever beat the RS500 and then along came Godzilla!!!

To be fair to DJ i think he was more comparing it to the XR4ti Sierra, or perhaps the RS Cosworth planned for early 1987.

[davyboy]

I worked at Ford in the early 1990s and the Mustang was never considered a match for the RS500 in handling or performance. I can only imagine DJ was talking about fitting some monster blower onto the 5.0 V8 or something. In terms of Godzilla, we had one in pieces in Dunton for R+D purposes immediately after it came out... that certainly had Ford worried.

[Mikelee]

Just wanting to now if anyone knows what the colour was that Andy Rouse painted his XR4Ti back in 1985 is. It appears to change colour in different angles

[racer69]

Here is a pic of the car from 1985, at what looks like Lodge Corner at Oulton Park

[chunterer]

Yes that looks about right to me racer69

Possibly Barry Sheene behind?

[GBRM]

Any update on how the car is coming along??

[racer69]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Possibly Barry Sheene behind?

I believe so yes I'm not sure where the Oulton Park round fell in 1985, so not sure whether this would be the first Supra that was wrecked during 1985, or the replacement?

The pic may be from the round at the Oulton Park Island circuit, footage of which appears on the video "Champion - Barry Sheene"

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by racer69

I believe so yes I'm not sure where the Oulton Park round fell in 1985, so not sure whether this would be the first Supra that was wrecked during 1985, or the replacement?

The pic may be from the round at the Oulton Park Island circuit, footage of which appears on the video "Champion - Barry Sheene"

Think Oulton was still the Good Friday meeting in those days, so probably somewhere between rounds 1-3 that year?

Sheene's car was ok until about a month later when totalled at Thruxton, end of May IIRC?

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Think Oulton was still the Good Friday meeting in those days, so probably somewhere between rounds 1-3 that year?

Sheene's car was ok until about a month later when totalled at Thruxton, end of May IIRC?

Oulton was Round 2. The series started at Silverstone, where the Rouse Sierra was absent (either not finished or not-yet-homologated?). The Sheene Supra (and several others....) was written off at the second Thruxton in late May

AFAIK the early-season calendar ran

Round 1- Silverstone (don't have the date)
Round 2- Oulton (Good Friday/Easter Saturday- don't have the exact date but knowI've got the relevant Autosport somewhere)
Round 3- Thruxton- (possibly Easter Monday- think the report is in the same issue of Autosport as Round 2?)
Round 4- Donington ETCC meeting (5th May)
Round 5-Thruxton (27th May)

etc...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

Oulton was Round 2. The series started at Silverstone, where the Rouse Sierra was absent (either not finished or not-yet-homologated?). The Sheene Supra (and several others....) was written off at the second Thruxton in late May.

Yes I think that's right, car was ready but there was a slight delay in homologation papers being signed off or something.

Interesting to note from that 'BTCC 50 Years' dvd that Andy counts the Rover as his favourite car, could do anything with it as it was very strong and light despite the size. Slightly surprising therefore that he chose not to continue to develop and race it?

I guess it's likely that he chose to develop the Ford because Rover decided to continue with TWR even though they had got them thrown out of the BTCC and Rouse had won with one?!

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes I think that's right, car was ready but there was a slight delay in homologation papers being signed off or something.

Interesting to note from that 'BTCC 50 Years' dvd that Andy counts the Rover as his favourite car, could do anything with it as it was very strong and light despite the size. Slightly surprising therefore that he chose not to continue to develop and race it?

I guess it's likely that he chose to develop the Ford because Rover decided to continue with TWR even though they had got them thrown out of the BTCC and Rouse had won with one?!

Although the Rover may have been Andy's favourite car to drive, from a business point of view, the Sierra was much better for him.
I'm sure that Andy received official Ford backing (and money) for the XR4Ti project, plus it was used to develop the chassis parts for the forthcoming and all conquering Cosworth & RS500 Touring Cars, which Andy Rouse Engineering built and sold many, all over The World, both complete, and in kit form...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I'm sure that Andy received official Ford backing (and money) for the XR4Ti project, plus it was used to develop the chassis parts for the forthcoming and all conquering Cosworth & RS500 Touring Cars, which Andy Rouse Engineering built and sold many, all over The World, both complete, and in kit form...

Undoubtedly that is how events panned out. However i was just thinking how things could've, and perhaps, should've been very different?

Rouse must've thought long and hard about taking on TWR head on with a private entry, unless of course that was his way of getting his own back on ARG for giving TWR that deal after the DPR split and not him. Could Rouse have pitched for the works Rover BTCC deal prior to Group A, might that be possible?

Then with the Sierra, it seems a bit grandiose of Ford Europe to have Andy do the donkey work in developing the Sierra and then handing the works contract to Eggenberger? I know they ran separate development programmes, and Rouse built and sold loads of Cosworth's as VIVA says but surely ARE could've provided Ford with equally competitive cars for the BTCC and ETCC.

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Undoubtedly that is how events panned out. However i was just thinking how things could've, and perhaps, should've been very different?

Rouse must've thought long and hard about taking on TWR head on with a private entry, unless of course that was his way of getting his own back on either ARG for giving TWR that deal after the DPR split and not him. Could Rouse have pitched for the works Rover BTCC deal prior to Group A, might that be possible?

Then with the Sierra, it seems a bit grandiose of Ford Europe to have Andy do the donkey work in developing the Sierra and then handing the works contract to Eggenberger? I know they ran separate development programmes, and Rouse built and sold loads of Cosworth's as VIVA says but surely ARE could've provided Ford with equally competitive cars for the BTCC and ETCC.

I've always wondered about that- as I remember, when Ford first announced the Cosworth, (early/mid-86?) a prototype Group A car was displayed at various events (Motor Show amongst others?)- from very vague recollection, this was a white car with Motorcraft sponsor decals. I think, but won't swear, that this had an 'Andy Rouse Engineering' sticker on the front bumper?

So why did the ETCC deal go to Eggenberger? It's hard to compare the various teams' versions of the XR4Ti, as they went head-to-head so rarely, but thinking of the earliest ETCC outings in '85, (Rouse at the TT, HWRT & ABR in a couple of late-season rounds) Andy's car seemed to be more of a match for speed against the regular ETC opposition than those first German cars were (didn't he lead the early laps of the TT until the stub-axle failure put him in the gravel at Copse?), and the Rouse XR4Ti appeared pretty much on a par with Eggenberger when they met at Donington and the TT in '86.

Was Andy's Ford backing from Ford UK, rather than Ford Europe, and therefore only limited to the BTCC?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by KA

I've always wondered about that- as I remember, when Ford first announced the Cosworth, (early/mid-86?) a prototype Group A car was displayed at various events (Motor Show amongst others?)- from very vague recollection, this was a white car with Motorcraft sponsor decals. I think, but won't swear, that this had an 'Andy Rouse Engineering' sticker on the front bumper?

So why did the ETCC deal go to Eggenberger? It's hard to compare the various teams' versions of the XR4Ti, as they went head-to-head so rarely, but thinking of the earliest ETCC outings in '85, (Rouse at the TT, HWRT & ABR in a couple of late-season rounds) Andy's car seemed to be more of a match for speed against the regular ETC opposition than those first German cars were (didn't he lead the early laps of the TT until the stub-axle failure put him in the gravel at Copse?), and the Rouse XR4Ti appeared pretty much on a par with Eggenberger when they met at Donington and the TT in '86.

Was Andy's Ford backing from Ford UK, rather than Ford Europe, and therefore only limited to the BTCC?

I agree with all of that KA, including that I am also sure that the 'Prototype Group A Cosworth' was Andy Rouse Engineering built.
I think you've also hit the nail on the head by saying that Andy's support was Ford UK and not Europe, remember the controversy when Andy won the Silverstone TT instead of backing off to let the Eggenberger cars take the flag first? I think that was not only for his sponsors, but also to say to Ford that they should have given the contract to him instead!

[Tim Wilkinson]

I'm not sure Rouse had much official backing. His Sierra only just beat Rod Birley's onto the track (a matter of days) and Rod only received a bodyshell from Ford, from what I can gather. I would have thought that someone with Rouse's resources, together with proper Ford backing, would have been far ahead in prepping the new car, rather than just about beating a club racer (albeit one with a proven track record running in a high-end club series) to get the car up and running.

Don't forget that Ford wouldn't give team orders - not just the TT, but also Soper / Brancatelli taking wins from Rouse in the BTCC. That suggests to me that Ford didn't really have much say over what Rouse did - the TT can be explained away as a local team beating the works effort in its local race, but it makes no sense to send a works effort, sporadically, into a local series against another supported team.

Mostly opinion though, so not worth much.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by KA

I've always wondered about that- as I remember, when Ford first announced the Cosworth, (early/mid-86?) a prototype Group A car was displayed at various events (Motor Show amongst others?)- from very vague recollection, this was a white car with Motorcraft sponsor decals. I think, but won't swear, that this had an 'Andy Rouse Engineering' sticker on the front bumper?

Don't forget thay Andy built a racing XR4i car for Ford for the 1985 Cologne Motor Show .

[ghinzani]

Al Im not sure if you came down to Rouse's to collect the first engines in 87 but I distinctly recall talking to the guys down there and them telling me the first test hack was an XR4Ti with the window pillar hacked out. Whether that then applied to any of the race cars I dont know for sure but I had a feeling the 2nd car of Pete Hall and perhaps one of the European cars (Tassins red one?) were XR4Tis of some sort that had been chopped up or rebuilt from crashed ones.

Rouse definately had backing from Ford UK because that old fella from Ford, (I think he was called Ashcroft?) was always in attendance and they were involved in dealer stuff at the races and away from them.

[VIVA GT]

You're right Ghinz. Chassis - wise the first Cosworths were the same as the XR4Ti, plus I agree that Pete Hall's (original) shell was supposedly the old Merkur with the rear window glass modified to Cosworth style. (Let's face it, a lot cheaper than preparing a complete new bodyshell, just for cosmetics).
Plus, the 'jig' bodyshell used for the (bolt in aluminium) Cosworth roll cages was a Merkur shell...
Peter Ashcroft and John Griffiths (both Ford Motorsport) were often in attendance with Andy at the BTCC meetings, plus, don't forget that Andy was also competing in the WTCC in 1987, and couldn't make every BTCC round that year.

[Mike Sheraton]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Also search for Ford Mercury Merkur, same car and very dominate in the US for a short period. I know a bit on these as I was going to build one for ModProds years ago as Cossies were not allowed and did a fair bit of research even had a caged shell, Roland Hayes was going to do me the engine, I wish I had gone ahead now as I reckon it would have been very quick, I may have even got around to winning a race instead of bubberling around in a V8 I can't hear but everyone else seems to like :-(.

wish me and my dad could biuld something like that, but too expensive, would be nice to biuld a car that can challenge for outright wins as through my dads racing he never got one because he was in in a Cortina GT.

oh well Maybe i will win the lottery or something

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by KA

So why did the ETCC deal go to Eggenberger? It's hard to compare the various teams' versions of the XR4Ti, as they went head-to-head so rarely, but thinking of the earliest ETCC outings in '85, (Rouse at the TT, HWRT & ABR in a couple of late-season rounds) Andy's car seemed to be more of a match for speed against the regular ETC opposition than those first German cars were (didn't he lead the early laps of the TT until the stub-axle failure put him in the gravel at Copse?), and the Rouse XR4Ti appeared pretty much on a par with Eggenberger when they met at Donington and the TT in '86.

I don't know the answer but think it might have something to do with Lothar Pinske of Ford Köln/Cologne. Don't know of Pinske's english but both he and Eggenberger speaks german, so chosing Eggenberger over Rouse might have been a matter of culture.
Secondly Eggenberger had quite a reputation in the ETCC, compared to Rouse doing a season and a bit with the Broadspeed Jaguar a decade earlier.

Jesper

[VIVA GT]

I think Jesper is right there, in fact to say that Eggenberger had a 'bit of a reputation' is an understatement. Firstly with BMW's then onto turning the Stuttgart Taxi Volvo into the machine it became. He was also good at telling the manufacturer what needed to be homologated to make the cars more successful.
Don't forget that when Andy Rouse was involved with the (fantastic, if fated) Jaguars, that was as an employee of Broadspeed, and not his own race car preparation company.

[KA]

Just to go off on a slight tangent, any idea how many Group A XR4Tis were built/raced by the various teams? (or have we covered this anywhere else?). I'm wondering because of a discussion over on 'Australian Touring Cars' of the ex-Neville Crichton/Mark Petch Eggenberger car, which is currently under restoration
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=116627&page=3

Rouse built a couple in '85, one going to Australia/NZ at the end of '85, and Eggenberger must have had at least two, with probably a third as a spare for their ETCC season in '86 (one going to Crichton in NZ at the end of the year), and HWRT ran one, sometimes two in '86
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-04-06-012.jpg

http://www.racingsportscars.com/type...4Ti.html?cat=4

Karl Oppitzhauser entered one at a few ETCC rounds in '86
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-04-06-026.jpg (possibly a second HWRT car?)

A couple of German-entered cars appeared at some late-season ETCC rounds in 1985
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-28-030.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-28-031.jpg

...and several appeared in the DTM- One of these apparently ended up in Finland with Kalle Sarlin
http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/for...1/sierx1ss.htm

Any idea of how many in all, and how many survivors?

[Al Weyman]

What about American entered cars (Merkurs), I believe they wiped the board there on their debut at Detroit(?) blowing all the domestic built yanks out the water.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by KA

Any idea of how many in all, and how many survivors?

Do we know how many were converted into Cossies ? Rouse converted at least one into a Cosworth and I wonder whether Eggenberger did also ?

[brown dog]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

What about American entered cars (Merkurs), I believe they wiped the board there on their debut at Detroit(?) blowing all the domestic built yanks out the water.

I believe there were two built by Jack Roush for the American TranAm series, these were run in Shell colours and wiped the board in 1987 I think. (google it you will find plenty of pics) One of these cars was bought by Mark Petch and run in NZ with Kayne Scott driving, they cleaned up the Sports Sedan class and set many lap records before it got banned here too! It has only gone back to the states in the last couple of years.
HOWEVER, these were American "TansAm" cars, and not touring cars. Full spaceframes, Esslinger engines with BIG hp etc.

It would be interesting to find out where Andy Rouses 1985 car ended up, Mark Petch also bought this and ran it here and in Australia. Surely a car worth finding if it won the 1985 BTCC??!! I do not know if it was sold here or left in Australia.

Another detail I have discovered, the Eggenberger and Rouse XR4Ti's were built with aluminium cages, and all of the RS500's I have seen to date had steel welded in cages. Was this a rules change to ban ali cages in Group A? When were ali cages banned?

The Eggenberger car we have here had a steel cage welded in when it was converted into an RS500, apparently the shell was very flimsy and did not handle well when it ran the ali cage, I think people were only just beginning to switch on to the fact a welded in steel cage offered a good performance adavantage over ali, as well as being a lot safer if you got into an argument with another car or the scenery!

Conrad