Formula Free - CSCC - Page 3

TorqueWench · 26 Jan 2007, 10:01 (Ref:1826267)

You will all no doubt have checked with the 2006 BARC Formula Renault Specific Regulations which state "Ground clearance is free".

Arty B · 26 Jan 2007, 10:13 (Ref:1826274)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorqueWench

You will all no doubt have checked with the 2006 BARC Formula Renault Specific Regulations which state "Ground clearance is free".

That is because BARC FR and Club F3 have dispensation from the MSA to do so in their Championship Regulations. Despite many others having sought a similar arrangement none have been forthcoming.

car13 · 26 Jan 2007, 10:31 (Ref:1826285)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorqueWench

We have to comply with the MSA Blue Book and scrutineers have blocks to do checks pre and post quali and race. Therefore, J C 20.1.2: "Ground clearance to be as per definition 4cm unless stated otherwise in SRs." (their italics, not mine)

As CSCC run series they avoid the need for scrutineers of regulations as required in championships, all cars will go through safety scrutineering as with any racing event. The idea is to incourage people to get into a car and come racing, I have raced with MGCC and converted to CSSC and this will be my 3rd season with them in tintops, which started in the same format as this.

SIMPLE, CLEAN RACING is that not what club racing is about......

For the price you can pick up a single seater for on ebay and the like its tempting to spend 1200 quid and try it, ok there will be faster cars better spec cars (thats life) but for the cost involved there is no excuse not to give you car a run out this season and see if its for you.

Lola · 26 Jan 2007, 10:47 (Ref:1826300)

so its 40mm for all cars????

andy97 · 26 Jan 2007, 10:56 (Ref:1826306)

All the following single seaters available for less than £5K asking price (and you might get them for much less than that!). They would also all be eligible for one of the Monoposto classes giving a wide variety of races to enter nationwide:

http://www.motorsportads.co.uk/race-...ters/7085.html

http://www.motorsportads.co.uk/race-...ters/6833.html

http://www.motorsportads.co.uk/race-...ters/7835.html

http://www.motorsportads.co.uk/race-...ters/6943.html

http://www.motorsportads.co.uk/race-...ters/7178.html

http://www.motorsportads.co.uk/race-...ters/7701.html

If the search was widened to include cars less than £10k asking price there would be all sorts of interesting machinary available, i'll include just 3:

http://www.motorsportads.co.uk/race-...ters/6428.html

http://www.motorsportads.co.uk/race-...ters/6347.html

http://www.motorsportads.co.uk/race-...ters/6857.html

Go on, give it a go. The cars are cheaper to run than is generally thought (much cheaper than a Caterham, probably) and far quicker. The performance per pound is astonishing, particularly in this new series.

TorqueWench · 26 Jan 2007, 12:58 (Ref:1826443)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lola

so its 40mm for all cars????

No - it's a Series, not a Championship, and the Specific Regulations can say ride height is free. They could also say nothing about ride height, as it's a Series. There are no regs about ride, weight etc for our other two Series.

Nice comments from you guys - all we want to do is race - and encourage novices.

stuart05 · 26 Jan 2007, 13:34 (Ref:1826490)

Like "Car 13", I joined Tin Tops at the outset, moving away form "Championship" racing.
Instantly, I came across a breed of people who just wanted to race. They didn't care what they were lining up against - it was a race. And it was more fun than you could shake a blue book at!
All that lining up in scrutineering after a race is just a dim and distant memory. After a race I want to go straight to swapping tales with my fellow competitors about my acts of heroism over the previous 40 minutes, not having my angle of dangle measured. In Tin Tops that is exactly what we get - fun, value for money, hassle free racing. FFree will be the same, I'm sure. At £99 what do you have to lose?

Arty B · 26 Jan 2007, 14:23 (Ref:1826528)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorqueWench

No - it's a Series, not a Championship, and the Specific Regulations can say ride height is free. They could also say nothing about ride height, as it's a Series. There are no regs about ride, weight etc for our other two Series.

Nice comments from you guys - all we want to do is race - and encourage novices.

Series or Championship all car racing is subject to the provisions of the Blue Book which on page 276 (Single Seater Dimensions) of the 2007 copy clearly states that the minimum ride height for Single Seaters is 4cm.

It is a fallacy that Clubs can have their own regulations. The correct term is ASRs which means ADDITIONAL supplementary regulations, that being ADDITIONAL to the Blue Book provisions NOT instead of.

MSA dispensation will be required to run Single Seaters under 4cm whatever the status of the event, unless it is International Permit which is how EuroBoss get round it.

Larry J-Croft · 26 Jan 2007, 15:01 (Ref:1826550)

Arty,
You are in danger of making an issue out of non issue!!!

car13 · 26 Jan 2007, 15:06 (Ref:1826555)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry J-Croft

Arty,
You are in danger of making an issue out of non issue!!!

exactley

Arty B · 26 Jan 2007, 15:22 (Ref:1826559)

Quote:

Originally Posted by car13

exactley

Hat and coat on...............left the room!

TorqueWench · 26 Jan 2007, 17:06 (Ref:1826651)

It would also be VERY uncomfortable to run less than 4cm - lots of fillings working loose! Still, what do I know! Maybe we could attract some canny dentists out there!

schomosport · 26 Jan 2007, 22:37 (Ref:1826854)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorqueWench

It would also be VERY uncomfortable to run less than 4cm - lots of fillings working loose! Still, what do I know! Maybe we could attract some canny dentists out there!

I can't believe I read that statement in connection with a formula libre type series for single seaters..............

Neil1982 · 27 Jan 2007, 01:28 (Ref:1826941)

Quote:

Originally Posted by car13

exactley

So thats just fine then is it.....lets all ignore the rules....Can I turn up and drive around in my under pants with no helmet? I admit that it may be a rule which many series would like to bypass, but why should this series be any different to the rest? MSA states 4cm, I hope for the integrity of the series that it is enforced.

The series is a nice concept, but do it properly.

and Schomo, your right, any single seater will be MUCH faster at 20mm than it will at 40mm, fortunately I have no fillings, but I am sure that they would be safe!

kickstart · 27 Jan 2007, 08:58 (Ref:1827015)

As someone once said many years ago "rules are made for the guidance of wise men but the blind obedience of fools" - mind you I wouldn't quote that to a traffic cop.

TorqueWench · 27 Jan 2007, 10:32 (Ref:1827050)

[quote=Neil1982] MSA states 4cm, I hope for the integrity of the series that it is enforced.

The series is a nice concept, but do it properly.

quote]
Excellent - so now we have winkled out that there are drivers on this thread that want us to stick with 4cm clearance, the next Committee Meeting can consider this and may adopt it as part of the Regulations. (That's on Feb 6th). I suppose it is relatively easy for the scruts to police - they all have a piece of wood...

We appreciate your feedback - and would welcome you on our grids

JohnMiller · 27 Jan 2007, 13:02 (Ref:1827118)

There might be those who haven't shouted who would enter andcould only do so if the rules stayed as originally proposed.

Also some of those complaining may not have any intention at all of doing any races with you either.

TorqueWench · 27 Jan 2007, 14:41 (Ref:1827158)

That's why we have a committee! (I knew there must be some reason)

schomosport · 27 Jan 2007, 16:51 (Ref:1827239)

[QUOTE=TorqueWench]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil1982

so now we have winkled out that there are drivers on this thread that want us to stick with 4cm clearance,

I don't think that is quite correct. What was actually said in preceding threads was
1) You are not likely to get dispensation to run any lower than 4cm
2) that if the height be 4cm (or any other for that matter) it be properly enforced.

TorqueWench · 27 Jan 2007, 17:16 (Ref:1827254)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

There might be those who haven't shouted who would enter andcould only do so if the rules stayed as originally proposed.

Also some of those complaining may not have any intention at all of doing any races with you either.

I can't take account of those who don't speak up - and there are many who aren't even aware of Ten Tenths... but we can try to make this Series as successful as possible and that means setting rules that are inclusive and enforceable. One thing the CSCC does do is police the rules that we do have.

What we can do is set the rules so that they suit as many cars and drivers as possible, that they are simple and easy to enforce, and keep an open mind at the end of the five races in case we need to cater for those racing with us in a slightly different way, in order to keep them racing with us.

Don't forget, we have moved very quickly on this - we have been thinking for some time about a SS series, but at the Autosport Show we suddenly had a co-ordinator appear, and the next day a sponsor from out of the blue. I think that most of what could be said about the Series has probably been said, so now I look forward to confirming any more details that the Committee decide that we need to via the website, and racing with some/all of you at Anglesey in June! (And by the way, the circuit sounds awesome - but that's another thread!)

JohnMiller · 27 Jan 2007, 18:23 (Ref:1827294)

You don't need dispensation to run at sub 40mm for a non-championship.

Just like BARC-SEC SS didn't, SEMSEC don't and the BARC Plum Pudding doesn't.

I've looked into this before, if Mono wanted a dispensation they would get one anyway, the fact is they've never applied for one.

One of the good things about racing on Stowe, is they have no cover. I remember once I went there for a BARC race and it was chucking it down so we didn't bother with scrutineering. They tried to chuck me out after qualifying as I had not been safety scrutineered. When I pointed out the regulation which says scrutineering can only take place under cover they had to change their tune... Next time they had a tent but it blew away in the wind.

andy97 · 28 Jan 2007, 08:56 (Ref:1827627)

So Arty B says the following:

"The Blue Book is quite clear, minimum ride height is 4cm.I do not see how the CSCC can decide it is free without dispensation from the MSA which no one else other than Club F3 and BARC FR have been able to get. Many have tried."

and,

"Series or Championship all car racing is subject to the provisions of the Blue Book which on page 276 (Single Seater Dimensions) of the 2007 copy clearly states that the minimum ride height for Single Seaters is 4cm.

It is a fallacy that Clubs can have their own regulations. The correct term is ASRs which means ADDITIONAL supplementary regulations, that being ADDITIONAL to the Blue Book provisions NOT instead of.

MSA dispensation will be required to run Single Seaters under 4cm whatever the status of the event, unless it is International Permit which is how EuroBoss get round it."

Whilst John Miller says,

"You don't need dispensation to run at sub 40mm for a non-championship.

Just like BARC-SEC SS didn't, SEMSEC don't and the BARC Plum Pudding doesn't.

I've looked into this before, if Mono wanted a dispensation they would get one anyway, the fact is they've never applied for one".

Bl00dy hell, I'm confused.

The fact is that I just want to race a single seater in an uncomplicated and value for money way with a bunch of like minded people. I want to enjoy myself. I am quite sure that, at this level, the individual driver talent will be the deciding factor rather than the ride height anyway. And, as I said earlier, some drivers in ground effect F3 chassis in Mono have proven that its a farcical rule by running their cars so soft that they run at less that 40mm ride height at speed anyway. I don't care about the ride height issue, I would just like to see a good grid out there.

People seem to be focusing on the ride height issue but no one seems to be concerned that one guy could turn up with a 2 litre F2 car with 350 bhp, whilst the majority of the 2 litre cars may have 200bhp F3 or 180bhp Mono engines. These things have a habit of evening themeselves out and as long as you can set your own bench marks, have a battle with somebody and ENJOY YOURSELF does it matter, at this stage. If you want regs and to fight for championship glory then I'm sure that Club F3, Mono and F4 etc can accomodate you (but remember the playing field won't be level there either - there will always be someone who can test more or put new tyres on or will have more talent) but in the meantime, think about running in F Free (or encourage someone else to run), just for the craic, just for the experience, just for the signatures, just to learn the circuit, just for whatever.

It would be good if this series could succeed by encouraging a few more people to try their hand at single seaters, rather than automatically gravitating towards a saloon, hatchback or MX5 type series. The whole single seater community would then benefit. We should all be focusing on that aim rather than worrying about reasons why not to run. Where else do you get a single seater race for £99 or a double header for £175?

chris1600 · 28 Jan 2007, 12:05 (Ref:1827729)

I agree with Andy97.

For me the 40mm ride height issue isn't that important. If the rule is valid and applicable for these races then competitors should compete within the rules, or at (the very) least the spirit of the rules.

However if I am able to enter these races, and I would like to, I don't imagine with a standard FF1600 and more importantly my meagre talent that I will be anywhere other than at the back. A fun, safe and cheap days racing is the most important thing to me.

Neil1982 · 28 Jan 2007, 13:53 (Ref:1827828)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

You don't need dispensation to run at sub 40mm for a non-championship.

Just like BARC-SEC SS didn't, SEMSEC don't and the BARC Plum Pudding doesn't.

I've looked into this before, if Mono wanted a dispensation they would get one anyway, the fact is they've never applied for one.

I am sure cars ran/run under 40mm in BARC-SEC SS , SEMSEC and the BARC Plum Pudding, but does it actually state ride height free, or was it just not measured? Looking at the draft SEMSEC 2007 regs it does not state anything about ride height at all. I am fairly sure that all of these series should be running at 40mm if they are to comply with MSA regulations.

I don't quite see the logic behind the MSA imposing a 40mm ride height on championships, and then letting series do as they wish. Does that apply for the whole section of the blue which contains the single seater dimensions. Can I turn up with a wing that is wider than the permitted width, and indeed allow my exhaust to protrude past the rear of the car?

As for dispensation, I can not comment on wheather or not Mono have asked for dispensation, but what I can say is that when we were running F3000 cars in the MSA British Sprint Championship, a dispensation was asked for from the MSA and refused (....for an MSA championship!), so I don't think its just a case of ask and it shall be given. We had to run them at 40mm! (so I can't see why you can't make any singleseater run at 40mm, for sure it won't be as quick, but it's not suddenly going to fly of the face of the earth!)

The requirement was placed in the blue book at the request of some of the circuit owners to prevent damage to the surface of the track, so perhaps we should get Motorsports Vision to get it removed!

I agree with many of you that ride height in a series such as this does not really matter, as I am sure people with 240+bhp single seaters are going to turn up. Andy is right, it's just about getting cars out, and it does look like great value for money, but rules are rules after all! And its not as if it is hard to enforce. All cars go through parc ferme anyhow, and what does a 40mm block of aluminium cost?

RushyRacer · 28 Jan 2007, 14:04 (Ref:1827836)

So then Neil 1982 does that mean you are going to race in the Series or not ?

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