Champ Car teams at Indianapolis - How close did we come

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Lets assume that TG does fund some rides for Indy....which I do not know to be the truth...but just for argument's sake...

If he would, it is probably because they NEED the money to run....

Kalkhoven has a fat bank roll...he doesn't need the money to run...he just wants a handout...

and don't give me the "olive branch" nonsense, either...KK said a couple of weeks ago that a merger was dead, and that CC was moving on.

Why should TG fund teams from a competing Series just so they don't totally disappear from the public's consciousness for 6 weeks?

and finally, no one has commented on the message that such an action would send to those who HAVE PAID for the leases, not to mention the exisiting IRL competitors who are there all season long, plus the few who are planning limited schedules???

Why should they pay while CC teams get them for free???

You got that right, a "merger" is dead. I don't even think the whys and wherefores and hypotheticals even matter, because tg never bothered to discuss it. You act like you are offended that KK had the audacity to call tg to discuss something.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Funny, isn't it that if the 500 really is receding in importance and that it is no longer respected by some of the posters here, those same folks spend a lot of time focusing on all the reasons they want the rest of us to believe the race is unimportant. If it is so unimportant, why spend so much time and cyber-ink telling us why? Or is it that there is some doubt about that even among those who can't stand TG?

Well this is the champcar forum yet we have people going on and on about the indy 500 etc. Obviously if you guys want to come in here with a big harrump to blow your trumpet about the absurdity and audacity of big meanie KK bothering to call tg then expect to get responded to. It seems it's the irl fans that have their panties all twisted in a knot. We're celebrating on the champcar side! No one I know wants any part of the irl!

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

You got that right, a "merger" is dead. I don't even think the whys and wherefores and hypotheticals even matter, because tg never bothered to discuss it. You act like you are offended that KK had the audacity to call tg to discuss something.

No...

I'm offended that he has the audacity to ask for free engines whan he has the money to buy them...just like everyone else has to do in order to run in May...and that "he" seems offended that TG didn't even bother to call him back on such an absurd suggestion that would cause the IRL and Honda major problems if it was granted...

he knew that it wouldn't be accepted....it was a ploy being played by a guy who needs a boost and the visibility around a big event that he is currently not involved in...

He did it to keep CC in the press for six weeks when his own series booked a date in China during May that they seemed to know back on February 10th was probably going to have to be changed to coincide with Australia anyway, then goes to the old shill who was formerly on his payroll to "share" this news, just to stir a crock of crap within weeks of Indy....

In fact, it makes me wonder whether or not Robin wrote what he did weeks ago that got him fired from CCWS so that he could be an "independent" reporter on this whole stink bomb...surely he would have an axe to grind after being fired for speaking "the truth," now wouldn't he???

Or would he really?????

Hmmmmmm...maybe there is more behind the scenes than we would want to believe????

I might delve into that as a specific topic sometime soon....because I think it stinks...but I will only report facts on that one...not opinions.

Yet he drops this bomb at the usual "right before Indy" timeline (how "convenient" as the Church Lady would say)

Since KK pronounced the merger as "dead," he merely needed a new spin to keep the crap pump cranking...

Like I said in my very first column...Just as the tulips sprout in my backyard in April, you can count on another merger or controversy to surface just before May.....

It happens every year....

But anyone with a decent sense of business, or an understanding of how such decisions could screw existing stakeholders who are committed to you, TG made the only choice that was smart and feasible....

Don't even discuss such an absurd offer...

If it were me ( and I'm not TG), I would have called KK back to say "How dare you to even suggest that I screw my existing teams and those who want to join us for Indy by asking for exceptions for your precious few by asking for freebies."

"Pull out your checkbook to Honda and Dallara to cover them and you are welcome to race here. I'll host you in my personal suite throughout May, because we are friends an skiing buddies...but this is business, and you'll pay your own way, the same way everyone else will or you won't race here in May...and Honda will not grant you any favors at the expense of their bottom line or others....period"

This isn't about the split...this is about CCWS wanting to stay in the news...KK knew that TG would not respond, because the offer was not acceptable..

It was Absurd...

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

No...

I'm offended that he has the audacity to ask for free engines whan he has the money to buy them...just like everyone else has to do in order to run in May...

Why are you offended, does it affect you personally. If TG is supporting other teams with $$$ to race, why not spend less to get some engines and give them to fully funded cars ?

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

In fact, it makes me wonder whether or not Robin wrote what he did weeks ago that got him fired from CCWS so that he could be an "independent" reporter on this whole stink bomb...surely he would have an axe to grind after being fired for speaking "the truth," now wouldn't he???

Or would he really?????

Yeah Tim you got them

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Since KK pronounced the merger as "dead," he merely needed a new spin to keep the crap pump cranking...

Yes he announced merger dead last week. What we are discussing occured months ago. I guess TG inability to pick up a phone, helped with KK's assertion that a merger was dead

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

But anyone with a decent sense of business, or an understanding of how such decisions could screw existing stakeholders who are committed to you, TG made the only choice that was smart and feasible....

What, do the see no evi here no evil act. What was stopping TG phoning or even shooting an email to TG, saying no, i dont like it for these reasons, we would be willing for this, this etc. You negotiate, good business as opposed to bury your head in the sand.

[JohnSSC]

First off, my panties aren't in a bunch over this. Second, I do not go anywhere with a big harrump nor do I blow my trumpet (thankfully, that stopped in 8th grade) and third, I am not sure how much celebrating one can do with yet another TBA on the schedule and a 17 car field that looks very much like becoming a 16-car field since Conquest's driver of the week only had a 3 race deal.

Personally, whether TG called KK or KK called TG or their respective mommies are sending notes in each of their lunch bags is not the issue. The issue is KK missing an opportunity and then playing the media to (once again) paint TG as the Big Bad Wolf.

I am an Open Wheel fan, not a CC partisan or IRL partisan. As marcus once observed (and quite accurately!), I am an equal opportunity pessimist when it comes to both series. If someone manages to do something well, I will applaud that. If someone screws the pooch yet again (something that happens with alarming regularity) then I will comment on that as well.

What I am not going to do is to take the easy way out by demonifying either the Amigos or TG and thereby placing all blame at one particular set of feet. At this point I am convinced that most of them cannot see the forest for the trees.

[sr230772]

this is getting boring grow up

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

First off, my panties aren't in a bunch over this. Second, I do not go anywhere with a big harrump nor do I blow my trumpet (thankfully, that stopped in 8th grade) and third, I am not sure how much celebrating one can do with yet another TBA on the schedule and a 17 car field that looks very much like becoming a 16-car field since Conquest's driver of the week only had a 3 race deal.

Personally, whether TG called KK or KK called TG or their respective mommies are sending notes in each of their lunch bags is not the issue. The issue is KK missing an opportunity and then playing the media to (once again) paint TG as the Big Bad Wolf.

I am an Open Wheel fan, not a CC partisan or IRL partisan. As marcus once observed (and quite accurately!), I am an equal opportunity pessimist when it comes to both series. If someone manages to do something well, I will applaud that. If someone screws the pooch yet again (something that happens with alarming regularity) then I will comment on that as well.

What I am not going to do is to take the easy way out by demonifying either the Amigos or TG and thereby placing all blame at one particular set of feet. At this point I am convinced that most of them cannot see the forest for the trees.

Excellent post, John...I agree 1,000%, and frankly, I feel the same way about both Series...

I wish they would come to the table with reasonable, credible offers and ideas to pull things together...but neither side can see the forest through the trees.

This "deal" for free engines just to run Indy was not a credible offer for anything, IMO.

[JohnSSC]

Just more smoke being blown, so far as I am concerned, Tim.

It is just dumb. So you say you will buy say 5 rollers at a million-plus for the lot of them, for something you can use but once per year, but balk at paying the add'l $$ for the engines because you want "good faith?"

Sure.

Day by day I become more convinced that the whole lot of them are focused on making money as opposed to actually racing. Otherwise we wouldn't have these goofy "spec racer" rules making things "fair" and "equal" among the teams. Heck, bring back Sport Renault then or better, Formula Super Vee. Bill Alsup! Your Country needs you!!

[Leighton Irwin]

I do not expect there to be a merger but if it evers happens or one series dies what will we all have to talk about?
It does go on and on every year.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well this is the champcar forum yet we have people going on and on about the indy 500 etc. Obviously if you guys want to come in here with a big harrump to blow your trumpet about the absurdity and audacity of big meanie KK bothering to call tg then expect to get responded to. It seems it's the irl fans that have their panties all twisted in a knot. We're celebrating on the champcar side! No one I know wants any part of the irl!

I appreciate your enthusiasm and support of Champcars. The reality is that this whole topic of conversation is about the Indy 500, as brought up by Kalkhoven and Robin Miller. KK et al. had some desire, to have Champcar represented at the Indy 500.

My opinion is that really you either blame both TG and KK for this not happening, or neither. The thing is, the blame game really isn't particularly useful, when we don't know very much factual information, beyond a conversation at some point occurred.

Regarding celebrating that this deal didn't happen, I really don't see much of that, and I see a heck of a lot of proponents of a merged series. I think most Champcar fans want a part of the IRL, and the other way around. Unfortunately, those who can make a difference can't agree on much of anything, and whose fault that is, really is speculative.

Back to the original topic, laying blame for this non-event, is pretty much a declaration of partisanship.

[Snrub]

To micro analyze an informal proposal makes no sense. The bottom line is that KK showed interest in doing something with the IRL for Indy. TG showed no interest in return. I think both parties had something to gain. The "you provide the engines, I'll provide the chasis" idea is sort of like splitting things down the middle so that both sides have costs and both have benefits. If TG felt that idea was unfair, but was otherwise interested he would have continued the conversation by expressing his opinion.

Come on, we all know TG subsidizes some of the field (at the very least Vision racing). CC does it too.

No one smells like roses in on either side of the fence, but TG legitimately seems less interested in working with CC. If only due to past preditory actions, the manner in which he speaks to the press about such things, etc.

Did this come out now because of the same press that occurs every year? Probably. Then again, if someone asked KK "did you make any attempt to work with the IRL to run Indy, etc." He could lie and say no or he could simply speak the truth. Similar questions are asked all of the time.

[blaarg]

Kevin is going to be getting his hands on a few Dallara chassis eitherway...

[JohnSSC]

Thank you, Fogel, for more clearly stating my "forest for the trees" comment.

There is so much that both of these series are doing that is positive or could be positive if the principals on all sides were more concerned with the success of open wheel racing rather than creating a "viable business model."

Snrub, TG owns Vision - it is not a subsidy.

[mountainstar]

It is a subsidy as it subsidizes the series. TG is filling out the series with a few extra cars.

A viable business model is necessary to ensure it's continued health every year for all involved.

[JohnSSC]

Isn't that a bit like socialism? Integral to capitalism is a thing called "risk." Removing the risk makes this what, then? It makes it some sort of "guaranteed success" business model I suppose where you can pretend to be a race-team owner and make lots of money. A sort of ATM machine for the racing set, I suppose.

A big part of racing is the chance for the individual driver/team to sort of step on everyone else on their way to the top. All of this "sound business footing" and "viable entity" and "equal terms" is turning this into a process not dis-similar from watching a bunch of Dairy Queen franchises fighting it out to produce the best vanilla ice cream cone in franchise history. We even have the "company owned" franchises (those that the Amigos/TG support) vs the independent franchisees (NH/AGR etc.).

It's great. I can read the prospectus to kill time during the yellows...

[mountainstar]

No, I think for any business you need some kind of plan.

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Isn't that a bit like socialism? Integral to capitalism is a thing called "risk." Removing the risk makes this what, then? It makes it some sort of "guaranteed success" business model I suppose where you can pretend to be a race-team owner and make lots of money. A sort of ATM machine for the racing set, I suppose.

I disagree. Both US OW series have blown through an utterly ridiculous amount of money. A return to the past would be ill advised. The time for prudence is now.

[JohnSSC]

There is no such thing as a sure thing.

I am not advocating a return to the days of Hetzler/Pook. I am saying that the focus on the "business model" brings an aspect of boredom to the process. You cannot launder out the risk of failure simply by "professionalizing" the "show." Entertainment/sports can be improved by having a more business-like approach (see R. Penske or B. Ecclestone) but you still need to maintain a flow of ideas. Like I said, you can't reduce this to a Dairy Queen franchise model.

[indycool]

The time for prudence was in the CART bankruptcy court.

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

It is a subsidy as it subsidizes the series. TG is filling out the series with a few extra cars.

And that's different to Forsythe and Kalkoven how exactly?? (Not that you're saying it is I suppose - I should never look at these threads - they rile me up too much)

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

The time for prudence was in the CART bankruptcy court.

How so?

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by indycool

The time for prudence was in the CART bankruptcy court.

But fate took a different turn. Wouldnt it be better focusing on the case at hand?

[indycool]

Yep.

[racinthestreets]

IC you did not elaborate on the "time for prudence was in the bankruptcy court". I am curious. The outcome saved one series. The alternative was to sale certain assets to TG. Please explain your idea of "prudence".

[indycool]

I ask myself why KK led the charge to "save CART" and am inclined to believe that he did so as a venture capitalist. If it had not been for that, we would've had one series. As it stands right now, both series are spending tens of millions that they'll never recover, IMO.