[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[Gerard C]

"Power gain will be tested during Prologue, will not be used during Qatar race, may be used from Imola onwards." Source: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/wec_2024_d21_hypercar_bop_16022024.pdf
The 210 kph threshold may be reviewed. Crystal clear.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

Does anyone knows what the hell is "Power gain after 210 kph", the new BoP criteria appearing on the last published BoP table ? I understand it won't be in effect at Bahrain but I can't understand what's behind it.

Probaby will end up with LMHs getting a tiny bit less power past 210 kph, once they can deploy the front axle hybrid that (above all) helps drive the car on upshifts.

[Sodemo]

They will be forcing the Toyotas to tow a caravan and the drivers can only steer with their elbows next.

[tomcug]

Who knows, maybe. Or they will be forced to have a silver driver

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

Does anyone knows what the hell is "Power gain after 210 kph", the new BoP criteria appearing on the last published BoP table ? I understand it won't be in effect at Bahrain but I can't understand what's behind it.

I’ll guess it is a nuanced BoP for something that will be very difficult to match in the homologation process. In that they try and match certain aero characteristics in the wind tunnel like drag and downforce. This will be practically impossible to do consistently at all speeds, unless you make the cars look all the same! So this could be to compensate for a car that is relatively poor at higher speeds. Now we might see that in top speeds, but it could be more nuanced than that.

That could be what the hell it is.

Originally Posted by Gerard C

"Power gain will be tested during Prologue, will not be used during Qatar race, may be used from Imola onwards." Source: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/wec_2024_d21_hypercar_bop_16022024.pdf
The 210 kph threshold may be reviewed. Crystal clear.

Not sure why the ability to change the actual threshold makes it less clear. That makes sense.

They are considering it, will get some data at Qatar, then will make sure it does what intended. If they put everything in stone from the beginning it might not work.

And they should reserve the right to modify this so that it can be good!

Originally Posted by Sodemo

They will be forcing the Toyotas to tow a caravan and the drivers can only steer with their elbows next.

I didn’t know that the intent was to apply only to Toyota. Interesting, and thanks for letting us know.

Of course, it could have been noticed that the Toyota does have relative to the others an advantage at higher speeds, but very similar elsewhere. Although this is pure speculation on my part.

Whatever I’ll be interested to see if my guess is right and interested to understand it more.

[tomcug]

It's something new they might use to balance the cars better (or not). IMO it's better to have more tools available and seems the ACO thinks the same. Who knows, maybe they introduce even more "tricks" later on. For now let's wait and see how cars do in Qatar.

[Sodemo]

Would someone care to remind me what the MO of the BOP is meant to be? Are they just simply penalising the faster cars to drag them back towards the slower ones or is there an equivalence of technology implemented where “theoretical performance” is the leveller?

[Gerard C]

https://www.fiawec.com/en/equivalence-of-technology/76

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

https://www.fiawec.com/en/equivalence-of-technology/76

Thanks for the link, but it doesn’t really explain much of the ethos behind the balancing methodology.

[Gerard C]

I don't think everything has to be revealed to the public. It's part part of the game. Not sure we could understand everything, only the results count.

[tomcug]

There was also a short statement regarding last year's Le Mans BOP change:
https://www.fia.com/news/wec-science...bop-adjustment

[tomcug]

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...r-bop-process/
Some interesting points:

“Before it was an input-[based] performance window. Now it’s more [based on] results, what we see on track. It’s linked to simulation and the need to correlate.

However, to help prevent sandbagging, Bouvet explained that BoP changes will be made more slowly for cars that are slower than average – meaning a struggling manufacturer cannot expect favorable changes to be made immediately.

“Le Mans is to be separated, so they [manufacturers] can do what they want before,” said Bouvet. “We’ve got the experience of Le Mans last year. “It needs to be treated as a separate [BoP]. It needs to be looked in a different way.”

The FIA and ACO specifically stated that one of its goals with the revised system is to ensure that the fastest LMH car and the fastest LMDh cars have similar performance.

So the question is - will the fastest LMH be as fast as the fastest LMDh at Qatar? Or slower? Or faster?

[Gerard C]

Similar.

[tomcug]

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...r-imola-debut/
They didn't test drag balancing at the prologue but it can still debut at Imola. Not a bad idea IMO, best as early before Le Mans as possible to see how this works in practice.

[Sodemo]

I literally do not know what’s going on any more with regards to the BOP.

[tomcug]

How so? The ACO are quite transparent about the changes they do. And those changes to the BOP process for sure aren't to fix the races as some suggested

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by tomcug

How so? The ACO are quite transparent about the changes they do. And those changes to the BOP process for sure aren't to fix the races as some suggested

I think because it was an EOT formula, then it was just a BOP based on data, now they are saying it’s based on data, simulations and track results.

I just feel that they will lose credibility quite quickly.

The latest BOP has Toyota and Ferrari struggling, so is that due to the BOP or are their cars really that bad?

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The latest BOP has Toyota and Ferrari struggling, so is that due to the BOP or are their cars really that bad?

That's a good question that I think can't be answered easily. There are so many things at play like different cars being strong around certain tracks and not so much somewhere else. BOP might be wrong indeed but there's no way to tell how much the results would be different if they had kept Bahrain BOP, etc. Also the changes made post-Bahrain aren't outrageous by any means, both Porsche and Toyota got nerfed a bit to a similar degree (Toyota got more weight penatly, Porsche lost more power) and Caddy lost some power too. Ofc it's possible that extra 9 kg of weight hurt Toyota's tyre management too much but we can't check this, they never raced in Qatar before. So wait and see, give the ACO time and after a few races we'll be able to draw some conclusion whether new BOP is going in a good direction or not...

[Adam43]

The relative weight and power has hardly changed between the Toyota, Ferrari (who are apparently struggling by being 1s off the pace) and Cadillac and Porsche compared to the last race (who were presumably struggling there).

Porsche and Cadillac are now in year 2. It could be that. Or the track.

Or maybe it does suggest that the BoP is a bit off (a tiny bit), but maybe it is showing that last year Toyota and Ferrari were pegged back too much. Now the teams in their second year have overtaken them because of this.

But I’m still thinking about what it means.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The relative weight and power has hardly changed between the Toyota, Ferrari (who are apparently struggling by being 1s off the pace) and Cadillac and Porsche compared to the last race (who were presumably struggling there).

Porsche and Cadillac are now in year 2. It could be that. Or the track.

Or maybe it does suggest that the BoP is a bit off (a tiny bit), but maybe it is showing that last year Toyota and Ferrari were pegged back too much. Now the teams in their second year have overtaken them because of this.

But I’m still thinking about what it means.

This. They should be making sure the other cars get faster, not trying to slow down Toyota/Ferrari. IMO the weight levels are ridiculous. These cars should not be this heavy.


Poor Isotta as well.

[XtC24]

Yeah, there was a lot of crying about Lmdh being hit with bad BOP and Hypercars being the favoured.
While I think that is complicated, lots of politics involved, maybe 100th LM, Ferrari, Peugeot etc... the truth is that both Cadillac and Porsche were already quite fast last year - see Caddy in Le Mans and Porsche in Fuji, once they evolved and gathered experience, things changed.

Also agree that almost 1100 for prototype is ridiculous and ancient...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Matador

Poor Isotta as well.

They look like they are where they should be. New team with the least preparation and they are only 2s off the other newbies BMW and Lamborghini.

Well done them.

I suspect they are thrilled whenever they get a good clean run in any session at the moment.

[KlBD]

Originally Posted by XtC24

Yeah, there was a lot of crying about Lmdh being hit with bad BOP and Hypercars being the favoured.
While I think that is complicated, lots of politics involved, maybe 100th LM, Ferrari, Peugeot etc... the truth is that both Cadillac and Porsche were already quite fast last year - see Caddy in Le Mans and Porsche in Fuji, once they evolved and gathered experience, things changed.

Also agree that almost 1100 for prototype is ridiculous and ancient...

The general range of weights is still down to the ACO wanting to slow the top class, which, fine if that's their prerogative for safety. But it does feel strange to see a 90 lb difference between the Porsche and Toyota

[joeb]

Originally Posted by KlBD

The general range of weights is still down to the ACO wanting to slow the top class, which, fine if that's their prerogative for safety. But it does feel strange to see a 90 lb difference between the Porsche and Toyota

I wonder what the manufacturers think of the heavy weights? On one hand, there are 19 cars in the top class that want to be in this ruleset, but on the other hand, we fans think the cars are too heavy!

Also, the play for energy efficiency makes the heavy weights seem odd on the surface, but maybe if teams are able to create more efficient cars at a heavy weight this is a win?

[KlBD]

Originally Posted by joeb

I wonder what the manufacturers think of the heavy weights? On one hand, there are 19 cars in the top class that want to be in this ruleset, but on the other hand, we fans think the cars are too heavy!

Also, the play for energy efficiency makes the heavy weights seem odd on the surface, but maybe if teams are able to create more efficient cars at a heavy weight this is a win?

If you asked the marketing division of the ACO, they may rationalize that real cars are heavier than the prototypes of the last decade, and these were originally intended to look more like road going hypercars and less like LMP1s, so...