[Team] Mercedes: Will they ever dominate again?

[Plantagenet]

I consider him aggressive, but then, given he's a multi WDC, he keeps company with some pretty aggressive drivers - certainly don't think he compares badly to Schumacher, Senna, Prost.

And the one who did always seemed to keep his nose clean (Hamilton) threw that all away when punting Verstappen off at 150mph at Stowe....truly awful given the potential consequences and for which i personally think the book she have been thrown at him.

[Aysedasi]

Please.....

[Skam85]

Russell is a dirtier driver than Max.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Russell is a dirtier driver than Max.

Absolutely. Bizarre some can't see it. And others.

[bathurst77]

It would be funny if max goes to MB-AMG
All those years of Toto hating on him, and christian singing his praises as st Gabreal's right hand man... turned on its head/

[bathurst77]

I dont think I have ever thought of lewis as clean driver and he is famous for dummy spits, calling my tyres are had it, blaming the pit crew.

When the main game of the last 5 years or so has been some upstart young foreigner vs "He is an English man! Hurrah for the English man!" SIR Lewis.
Who is the mostly UK based English language media (sky sports f1 and most of the print/web media) going to praise and fawn over? Even more so given Lewis is more media savvy and friendly where Max tends to hide awy making column inches and quotes harder work.

[BertMk2]

You'd have to assume that Mercedes will favour Russell this season - Hamilton will gradually be sidelined and edged out as the season progresses (as will Sainz at Ferrari). This gives Russell the chance to prove that he's the future lead driver that the team need - if he doesn't take that chance then Toto will need to find another top bracket driver from somewhere, if George does step up then Toto can settle for a 'good not great' driver for the second seat.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

You'd have to assume that Mercedes will favour Russell this season - Hamilton will gradually be sidelined and edged out as the season progresses (as will Sainz at Ferrari). This gives Russell the chance to prove that he's the future lead driver that the team need - if he doesn't take that chance then Toto will need to find another top bracket driver from somewhere, if George does step up then Toto can settle for a 'good not great' driver for the second seat.

Yes, although the challenge is that they really need to swoop long before George can prove whether or not he can improve and fill the team-leader void.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Yes, although the challenge is that they really need to swoop long before George can prove whether or not he can improve and fill the team-leader void.

I guess that depends on who they're looking at - if they're considering drivers that are under contract with other teams then there's less time pressure on the decision. If Russell looks the part then they've got the options of Antonelli and Schumacher on their books already for the supporting role. I think the only driver they really need to make a quick decision on would be Sainz - before he signs for someone else.

[S griffin]

Merc have said both drivers will be treated fairly. However this is a big season for Russell to show he is first class material

[peebee2]

F2 is very hit and miss as an arbiter. Latifi eventually finishing second is a great example.

Russell beat a very demotivated Hamilton by a relatively small margin in 2022, then was destroyed by a still far from his best Hamilton in 2023.

These are reasons why Russell has not convinced those he needs to as of yet.

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by peebee2

F2 is very hit and miss as an arbiter. Latifi eventually finishing second is a great example.

Russell beat a very demotivated Hamilton by a relatively small margin in 2022, then was destroyed by a still far from his best Hamilton in 2023.

These are reasons why Russell has not convinced those he needs to as of yet.

Ah. A very demotivated Hamilton. The same Hamilton who said in the off season that he was going to waste everyone.

It wasn't close. Not only did Russell beat Hamilton in 2022. So did Carlos Sainz.

Suddenly now , F2 titles mean nothing eh. Norris and Albon are #1 drivers in F1. Russell beat them both. Leclercs rookie F2 title is what got him the Ferrari #1 seat.

Oh really. Russell hasn't convinced those he needs to. He very much has in reality. This is why Hamilton wasn't offered more than 1 year plus an option in his last 2 contract negotiations. The attempts to water down Russell by LH fans is just funny.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

Oh really. Russell hasn't convinced those he needs to. He very much has in reality. This is why Hamilton wasn't offered more than 1 year plus an option in his last 2 contract negotiations. The attempts to water down Russell by LH fans is just funny.

LOL, if they were convinced they'd have already announced a new number two for 2025.

I forgot to mention before, the concerning number of mistakes GR made in 2023.

As I have said above, it's in his hands but at the moment the jury is very much out and it would be a big risk signing another number two for 2025.

Ferrari were smart in signing Leclerc before Hamilton, as Leclerc would very much be Merc's top choice to lead the team - now Merc are left only with interesting choices.

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by peebee2

LOL, if they were convinced they'd have already announced a new number two for 2025.

I forgot to mention before, the concerning number of mistakes GR made in 2023.

As I have said above, it's in his hands but at the moment the jury is very much out and it would be a big risk signing another number two for 2025.

Ferrari were smart in signing Leclerc before Hamilton, as Leclerc would very much be Merc's top choice to lead the team - now Merc are left only with interesting choices.

George Russell is literally the reason why Hamilton wasn't offered anything more than 1 year + an option for the last TWO contracts. That is a full endorsement. Period.

Leclerc himself was beat by Carlos Sainz in 2021 . But nobody with any sense declares that Leclerc is a #2 because of it. Russell had DNFs in 2023. A couple were his fault. And he came closer to winning races than Hamilton did.

Head to head qualifying is how teammates are judged. And in 2023, Russell beat LH. Yet Russells 2023 is passed off as a Perez type season by LH fans. Its ridiculous.

The same thing will happen with Leclerc. He will beat Hamilton in 2025. But some excuses will be made about the car. And LH fans will just hope Leclerc has an off year in 2026. And they will say Leclerc is not a real #1.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

George Russell is literally the reason why Hamilton wasn't offered anything more than 1 year + an option for the last TWO contracts. That is a full endorsement. Period.

Sorry, that is complete fantasy.

And you clearly don't know who wanted the option...

[Aysedasi]

I don't think peebee would class himself (herself) as an LH fan exactly.....

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I don't think peebee would class himself (herself) as an LH fan exactly.....

[GTRMagic]

There has been so much rubbish written on the socials about Mr Hamilton and the Ferrari move... unless i missed something, Mr Hamilton's plan was to become a Mercedes ambassador upon his retirement, and to work with various charities at the behest and investment on behalf of Mercedes. Equally Mr Hamilton was looking for a longer term deal to keep driving (2y+). And presumably a change in stipend to reflect Mr Hamilton's status as the GOAT, all powered by Mercedes.

None of these things happened... despite the public lovefest everywhere between the team principal and the driver.

So why wouldnt the driver see a rejection of his requirementsas anything other than an act of bad faith.

Ferrari is a massive lure.. emotionally... and when the emotional needs are largely snubbed by the current locale... its not a big stretch to see the link.

Will the outcome be successful? Well it is for current Ferrari Spa shareholders..
And the Tifosi...

As for Mr Russell being the greatest pilot since sliced bread... he hasnt shown that against the GOAT... maybe its there, under the covers. How he survives against Mr Alonso will be interesting... it will either be enriching... or a fundamental head fornication... and its hard to know which one...

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

There has been so much rubbish written on the socials about Mr Hamilton and the Ferrari move... unless i missed something, Mr Hamilton's plan was to become a Mercedes ambassador upon his retirement, and to work with various charities at the behest and investment on behalf of Mercedes. Equally Mr Hamilton was looking for a longer term deal to keep driving (2y+). And presumably a change in stipend to reflect Mr Hamilton's status as the GOAT, all powered by Mercedes.

None of these things happened... despite the public lovefest everywhere between the team principal and the driver.

So why wouldnt the driver see a rejection of his requirementsas anything other than an act of bad faith.

Ferrari is a massive lure.. emotionally... and when the emotional needs are largely snubbed by the current locale... its not a big stretch to see the link.

Will the outcome be successful? Well it is for current Ferrari Spa shareholders..
And the Tifosi...

As for Mr Russell being the greatest pilot since sliced bread... he hasnt shown that against the GOAT... maybe its there, under the covers. How he survives against Mr Alonso will be interesting... it will either be enriching... or a fundamental head fornication... and its hard to know which one...

To be fair, nobody forced Hamilton to sign his most recent Mercedes contract with the above terms stipulated.

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

As for Mr Russell being the greatest pilot since sliced bread... he hasnt shown that against the GOAT... maybe its there, under the covers. How he survives against Mr Alonso will be interesting... it will either be enriching... or a fundamental head fornication... and its hard to know which one...

Check the 2022 standings.

So now defending Russell from the same old tired tactics that every Hamilton teammate falls under, suddenly means I am saying he's "the best pilot since sliced bread"

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

Check the 2022 standings.

So now defending Russell from the same old tired tactics that every Hamilton teammate falls under, suddenly means I am saying he's "the best pilot since sliced bread"

Well, to be fair, it's not a huge step from 'elite' to 'sliced bread'......

[bjohnsonsmith]

My gut feeling is Hamilton had had enough and by going to Ferrari in 2025, he would be there when development was starting on the 2026 formula. However, that would mean seeing 2024 through at Mercedes and if he managed to get a win or two, so much the better.

[Skam85]

Personally I think there was a fair bit of hubris involved by Toto and co, thinking "Lewis will never leave us".

So they negotiated the deal with Hamilton giving up the barest possible in terms of years and off-track terms. As all successful businesses should.

While Lewis still signed the deal with Merc, probably not feeling the love as much as he would have expected, knowing now with get-out clauses for both parties, he went sniffing elsewhere and the rest is history.

The 'George Russell factor' would have been so low in Mercedes' considerations during these contract negotiations that it wouldn't have made it out of pre-qualifying.

[Plantagenet]

I've been supportive of Russell earlier in the thread - like 2022, he seems to have started the season better than Lewis.
But I do think he has a tendency to crumble under pressure. Alonso seems to have been given the blame for the incident in Australia but am I being unfair in thinking that other drivers would have used the situation to their advantage - i.e. Alonso was a sitting duck on the following straight had Russell not binned it??

As an aside, I think that when Lewis does leave at the end of the year, Mercedes will be glad. I've had colleagues before who only seem to utter negative things about your work and it can really sap morale.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

I've been supportive of Russell earlier in the thread - like 2022, he seems to have started the season better than Lewis.
But I do think he has a tendency to crumble under pressure. Alonso seems to have been given the blame for the incident in Australia but am I being unfair in thinking that other drivers would have used the situation to their advantage - i.e. Alonso was a sitting duck on the following straight had Russell not binned it??

My own view having watched the on board footage is that anyone else could have been caught out in exactly the same way in similar circumstances. Slowing down erratically in a very high speed corner on a street circuit with little run off is very dangerous and not cool.

For me Alonso is the one that comes out of this looking bad not Russell. Perhaps Alonso fans would disagree, but I don't see any complaints from Aston Martin.