[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[Aysedasi]

Have they suspended Jos yet? From a substantial height might be preferable.....

[billy bleach]

What an unseemly mess.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Richard, not recent but Newey stated that if Horner goes, so then he will leave as well. I'm not aware of him saying anything else since.

did Newey actually say that or does it stem from speculation that his contract also offers him an escape clause if Horner (and/or other senior RB members) exit?

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The female complainant against Horner has been suspended by Red Bull.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68501426

complete speculation on my part, the announcement of her suspension makes me think she has taken up their offer to appeal?

lots of episodes left in this saga unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Greem

Max. Oh, Max.

Attachment 79495

have to say, i like that MV is sticking by his family. they may not be perfect but it is his family and while he has every reason to distance himself from them he's not. admirable imo.

to be able to do that and not compromise one's focus or compete level is rare among athletes imo.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

did Newey actually say that or does it stem from speculation that his contract also offers him an escape clause if Horner (and/or other senior RB members) exit?

I read that as a direct quote from him, earlier in this saga

Originally Posted by chillibowl

complete speculation on my part, the announcement of her suspension makes me think she has taken up their offer to appeal?

lots of episodes left in this saga unfortunately.

I think that it's more likely linked to the fact, according to Saward, that screenshots were being taken, one must assume by her or someone with her, whilst the WhatsApp messages were actually being typed or Horner or someone else was responding.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I read that as a direct quote from him, earlier in this saga

Not saying you haven't see that quote, but I would love to see a link to an article that includes it. I have looked and all I can find is various articles saying that Newey "can" or "might" leave due to contractual clause that would allow him to exit his contract if Horner is gone. I haven't been able to find any quote directly from Newey on this entire situation one way or another. I am open to being wrong on this.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I think that it's more likely linked to the fact, according to Saward, that screenshots were being taken, one must assume by her or someone with her, whilst the WhatsApp messages were actually being typed or Horner or someone else was responding.

as in they have suspended her for some sort of confidentiality breach?

for sure a possibility (perhaps even the more likely one) but then that would have to mean the messages are real?

and that almost makes this worse no? rather, her suspension by RB can now be viewed as a contradiction of Horner's denials by RB itself?

[Mike Harte]

chilli, I think, and it seems to have been very subtly alluded to by Saward, that this is possibly a set-up, or stitch-up, by a party/parties that want Horner out for their nefarious reasons.

If you read various reports from different sources, they do all seem to hint that there is a behind the scenes battle for control at Milton Keynes, for reasons best known to themselves. I feel that the reports would say more, but they all know about the ridiculous libel industry we have in the UK where money talks more than the truth, sometimes.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

for sure a possibility (perhaps even the more likely one) but then that would have to mean the messages are real?

So the employee has been placed on leave for being "dishonest". Clearly the issue here is that the Whatsapp messages were not deleted as CH had specifically requested and the complainant said would be done. If that is not dishonesty, I don't know what is!

Sorry, that was too funny to not post.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Not saying you haven't see that quote, but I would love to see a link to an article that includes it. I have looked and all I can find is various articles saying that Newey "can" or "might" leave due to contractual clause that would allow him to exit his contract if Horner is gone. I haven't been able to find any quote directly from Newey on this entire situation one way or another. I am open to being wrong on this.

Richard

I'm afraid that I can't remember the article now - it's some weeks ago - but the comments came in a report discussing the alleged claim, and the Newey threat, because that's what it seemed like, was just one very short paragraph in a longer article.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard C

So the employee has been placed on leave for being "dishonest". Clearly the issue here is that the Whatsapp messages were not deleted as CH had specifically requested and the complainant said would be done. If that is not dishonesty, I don't know what is!

Sorry, that was too funny to not post.

Richard

obviously you have to do everything your boss tells you to do!

back in the day you got a pay raise for providing that kind of service, these days you get a suspension...and we wonder why kids dont want to work anymore!

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

obviously you have to do everything your boss tells you to do!

back in the day you got a pay raise for providing that kind of service, these days you get a suspension...and we wonder why kids dont want to work anymore!

Maybe time to shut this thread until the truth outs - it it ever does?….

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Maybe time to shut this thread until the truth outs - it it ever does?….

I assume you are not serious. Why shut it down?

The story seems to evolve nearly daily? Even then if it doesn't, why lock the thread? I think any personal attacks on those involved would not be on-topic, but discussing this, how it is playing out and it's implications to F1 are very much on point. And.. this is the general RB thread.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Maybe time to shut this thread until the truth outs - it it ever does?….

The thread is in it's 5th year, and has covered more than just the current intrigue at the team. Reading it is not mandatory.

[P38 in workshop]

I have no knowledge of the screenshots and would be quite happy to remain unsullied by knowing more.What we may all be aware of is that data analysis is a very important aspect of Formula 1 and of nearly equal importance is data security.With that kind of expertise on tap,they may have reasons for their actions.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Maybe time to shut this thread until the truth outs - it it ever does?….

certainly cant close it because i made a bad joke!

will endeavour to stay on topic tho.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

What an unseemly mess.

Apart from anything else, Red Bull have to know how appalling this looks?


International Womens Day tomorrow - any bets on Red Bull posting anything about IWD and women in sport?

[HDTVKSS]

So something that hasn't been raised RE the screenshots is that nothing is ever deleted fully on the internet.

Deleted WhatsApp messages are still backed up, normally to cloud. They are also held and can be accessed by various law enforcement and legal processes.

Whilst the full story may not have been in the leak, id be willing to wager that Red Bull have access to the full story.

An independent investigation as done by Red Bull is also not subject to the rules of evidence, which may help or sully some approaches and claims if taken to a court.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

So something that hasn't been raised RE the screenshots is that nothing is ever deleted fully on the internet.

Deleted WhatsApp messages are still backed up, normally to cloud. They are also held and can be accessed by various law enforcement and legal processes.

Whilst the full story may not have been in the leak, id be willing to wager that Red Bull have access to the full story.

An independent investigation as done by Red Bull is also not subject to the rules of evidence, which may help or sully some approaches and claims if taken to a court.

Judging by the behaviour of UK and Scottish Goverment officials and footballers wives that is not the case.

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Judging by the behaviour of UK and Scottish Goverment officials and footballers wives that is not the case.

Your right, as a trained lawyer and IT professional I made it all up…

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

So something that hasn't been raised RE the screenshots is that nothing is ever deleted fully on the internet.

Deleted WhatsApp messages are still backed up, normally to cloud. They are also held and can be accessed by various law enforcement and legal processes.

Whilst the full story may not have been in the leak, id be willing to wager that Red Bull have access to the full story.

An independent investigation as done by Red Bull is also not subject to the rules of evidence, which may help or sully some approaches and claims if taken to a court.

This is generally not the case. Retention periods (the techy term for auto deleting data) generally include backups as well.

There are exceptions because computers are complex, obviously. But if you set a retention period on Slack, or Gmail, for your messages or emails, as Head of IT and the man who looks after these systems, I can tell you there's no way you're getting that Slack message back or email back once it's deleted by the retention period. Unless I have a third party backing up Gmail - which is where these exceptions start to come in. blah blah boring techy stuff.

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This is generally not the case. Retention periods (the techy term for auto deleting data) generally include backups as well.

There are exceptions because computers are complex, obviously. But if you set a retention period on Slack, or Gmail, for your messages or emails, as Head of IT and the man who looks after these systems, I can tell you there's no way you're getting that Slack message back or email back once it's deleted by the retention period. Unless I have a third party backing up Gmail - which is where these exceptions start to come in. blah blah boring techy stuff.

WhatsApp has daily backup set as default. WhatsApp is also rarely an app that is controlled under corporate iot policies. Also , many company esp large multinationals run their messages for slack / teams / emails through legal filtering software that is retained for a period in the event of legal action. GDPR is largely based on customer data and PII. This is neither.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

International Womens Day tomorrow - any bets on Red Bull posting anything about IWD and women in sport?

Red Bull nothing but the unrelated RB team has made a special acknowledgement.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

So something that hasn't been raised RE the screenshots is that nothing is ever deleted fully on the internet.

Deleted WhatsApp messages are still backed up, normally to cloud. They are also held and can be accessed by various law enforcement and legal processes.

In legal terms this is known as "disclosure" and English Law will hit you with contempt of court, if you are found to have destroyed documents that may be relevant to the case. AFAIK texts and whats app messages etc. are classed as "relevant documents".

You cannot claim legal privilege if you have destroyed such documents and/or such documents were not issued for the purposes of reaching a settlement. And even then, you have to present them to the court.

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Whilst the full story may not have been in the leak, id be willing to wager that Red Bull have access to the full story.

An independent investigation as done by Red Bull is also not subject to the rules of evidence, which may help or sully some approaches and claims if taken to a court.

Yup, if you rely on these messages for your allegations then they must be presented (disclosed) to the defence and to the court.

However, as you say, this is currently an internal "HR" issue so disclosure rules don't necessarily apply.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Your right, as a trained lawyer and IT professional I made it all up…

Easy mate all I was musing was how come Johnson, Sturgeon etc all cannot retrieve theirs that's all. However I must say as an end to end encryption service I am surprised about what you aggressively present

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Easy mate all I was musing was how come Johnson, Sturgeon etc all cannot retrieve theirs that's all. However I must say as an end to end encryption service I am surprised about what you aggressively present

Sorry mate, cracking great headache and it’s Friday evening here. I need a beer lol. It can be recovered if you want under some circumstances. There is a limit tough, esp if you don’t want it recovered. If he was smart he would have taken a chat export before deleting it.

And tbh im thoroughly sick of the whole deal and its tabloid nature. It’s massively put me off the season as I’m over hearing the Sky team banging on about it or being front page on every site.