Vettel (DEU) vs Webber (AUS) part 3 - Page 33

chillibowl · 11 Jul 2011, 14:14 (Ref:2925083)

from a championship position point of view, Mark passing Vettel would only have only helped Ferrari and Alonso close the gap. really it seems only fitting that Ferrari who love team orders get the short end of the stick because of Red Bull using it.

**Born Racer** · 11 Jul 2011, 15:27 (Ref:2925114)

It is interesting that Christian Horner vociferously complained about Ferrari in Germany last year and now he's doing the same, regadless of the legality or lack of legality (but apparent acceptance) of team orders. I hear Eddie Jordan was much more supportive of Red Bull yesterday than he was of Ferrari in Hockenheim. But then his opinions are prone to being very fickle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

I think back to China 2010, Spa 2009 and plenty of first lap corners and they have never taken each other out. The incident in Turkey came when they both put each other to the sword

It's funny they don't want Mark to race Seb when historically (re: Turkey), it's only Vettel who's caused an accident between them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillibowl

really it seems only fitting that Ferrari who love team orders get the short end of the stick because of Red Bull using it.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

garcon · 11 Jul 2011, 15:42 (Ref:2925121)

Do we really have to go through the whole team orders thing again?

I still can't get my head around the fact team orders are perfectly acceptable and openly used in every other form of professional motorsport, but are somehow the ultimate expression of evil in Formula One.

As Team Manager you have to do what's best for the team. And that means if you're in second and third in the last couple of laps you don't lose yourself 30 odd points by letting two headstrong drivers battle it out and take each other off.

Equally, if Mark had been obviously faster and had caught Vettel several laps earlier, I would have had no issue with Vettel being told to let him by, especially if for example Vettel was nursing a technical issue and Mark had a chance of catching the leader.

**Born Racer** · 11 Jul 2011, 15:51 (Ref:2925125)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

Do we really have to go through the whole team orders thing again?

Only if you want to join in.

Many people's opinion hasn't changed. Yours hasn't and personally speaking, neither has mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

I still can't get my head around the fact team orders are perfectly acceptable and openly used in every other form of professional motorsport, but are somehow the ultimate expression of evil in Formula One.

To support my view, I don't like them in any form of motorsport where there is a drivers' championship.

Also many people higher up the motorsport chain support this view. Damon Hill expressed some grievances with this yesterday.

garcon · 11 Jul 2011, 15:56 (Ref:2925132)

My only confusion now is whether they're only illegal when Ferrari do it...?

fourWheelDrift · 11 Jul 2011, 16:23 (Ref:2925141)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I hear Eddie Jordan was much more supportive of Red Bull yesterday than he was of Ferrari in Hockenheim. But then his opinions are prone to being very fickle.

Eddie firmly believes in enforcing the rules and when Ferrari did it they were against the rules, now they are allowed. Give the man credit for having some integrity, even if he is a clown.

mattt · 11 Jul 2011, 16:30 (Ref:2925142)

Is all the team orders complaining about the last few laps when webber was quicker than Vettel and was only close enough to pass in the last two laps or so.

Its been standard practise it would seem during the last few laps for teammates to hold position, havent McLaren and other teams done it in the past.

I'm sure had it been the other way round, the same decision would have been made and a lot of people on here would be cheering the decision etc.

Super Hans · 11 Jul 2011, 19:03 (Ref:2925209)

Team orders can often be a little disappointing from a spectator's point of view, but ultimately teams will do what's best for the team, and the rules back them up. Besides, Webber ignored the order, so it's not as if we were deprived of any spectacle on this occasion.

jab · 11 Jul 2011, 19:43 (Ref:2925245)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Team orders can often be a little disappointing from a spectator's point of view, but ultimately teams will do what's best for the team, and the rules back them up. Besides, Webber ignored the order, so it's not as if we were deprived of any spectacle on this occasion.

He ignored the order initially when it was just from Ciaron Pilbeam. But when it was Horner on the radio, he eased up. James Allen has confirmed this

As a Webber fan, I won't say much, other than I'm surprised how many people have come out on Mark's side on this (given that Vettel is usually the one wrapped in teflon). So I'll just leave it to this article to sum up how I feel

**Adam43** · 11 Jul 2011, 20:06 (Ref:2925261)

It is interesting that there are comparisons to Hockenheim 2010 and not Turkey 2009. Which one was most like Silverstone 2011?

deeks6 · 11 Jul 2011, 21:21 (Ref:2925307)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

Are you sure, I can't find a single mention in the threads at the time:
Turkey 2009: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...and+prix+round
DoTR Turkey 2009 http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...er+race+turkey

EDIT: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...Vettel&page=48
There is talk of how Red Bull ruined Vettel's strategy giving the position to Webber, but nothing about them telling Vettel to stay behind.

No, I distinctly remember them saying on the radio "Mark is faster"

**Adam43** · 11 Jul 2011, 21:23 (Ref:2925308)

Surely you mean

Quote:

No, I distinctly remember them saying on the radio "Mark is faster"

**GTRMagic** · 12 Jul 2011, 04:50 (Ref:2925380)

Yes yes... so c'mon... Webber to Renault?

No mention of KERS issues this round for Red Bull.. maybe they fixed it?

jellison · 12 Jul 2011, 10:55 (Ref:2925500)

Webber should have just stuck it down the inside at Stow and given RedBull the Finger - This is RACING.

Team orders = Sorry does not compute.

stripedcat · 12 Jul 2011, 11:00 (Ref:2925503)

A quick question about Vettel - can anyone remember him doing a memorable overtake? I think overtook one person at Silverstone on Sunday. He couldn't find his way past Hamilton though.

fourWheelDrift · 12 Jul 2011, 11:35 (Ref:2925514)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stripedcat

A quick question about Vettel - can anyone remember him doing a memorable overtake? I think overtook one person at Silverstone on Sunday. He couldn't find his way past Hamilton though.

To be honest he reminds me a lot of Damon Hill in that he is so fast but when he is behind someone he tends to stay there (or run into them).

Mr V · 12 Jul 2011, 12:59 (Ref:2925560)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stripedcat

A quick question about Vettel - can anyone remember him doing a memorable overtake? I think overtook one person at Silverstone on Sunday. He couldn't find his way past Hamilton though.

He's done his share of overtaking this season, but it's the old adage about not overtaking when your in front. Hamilton couldn't find his way past Vettel in Barcelona either.

stripedcat · 12 Jul 2011, 14:01 (Ref:2925584)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

He's done his share of overtaking this season, but it's the old adage about not overtaking when your in front. Hamilton couldn't find his way past Vettel in Barcelona either.

I take your point and it is quite valid. If you have the best car, you tend to qualify at the front and don't really need to do that much overtaking.

I would like the Red Bulls to qualify badly and then see them do some overtaking in a race. Maybe they could poach some more McLaren staff to help them with that.

Mr V · 12 Jul 2011, 15:01 (Ref:2925609)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stripedcat

I would like the Red Bulls to qualify badly and then see them do some overtaking in a race. Maybe they could poach some more McLaren staff to help them with that.

That's the thing, for whatever reason, McLaren can't seem to build a car that can qualify too brilliantly, yet races very well, add that to 2 very good overtaking drivers, one of which is probably the best out there at coming through the traffic.

The Mac's of late remind me of the William's of 2002, only in reverse. The McLaren isn't a good qualifier, yet a good racing car, the Williams was a great qualifier (in Montoya's hands at least 7 poles on the bounce iirc) yet not an ideal racing car.

Louis Agilais · 12 Jul 2011, 18:31 (Ref:2925716)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stripedcat

A quick question about Vettel - can anyone remember him doing a memorable overtake? I think overtook one person at Silverstone on Sunday. He couldn't find his way past Hamilton though.

He didn't pass him because Hamilton, at least once, made an unfair and illegal manouver (two sudden changes of direction)

deeks6 · 12 Jul 2011, 21:25 (Ref:2925788)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

That's the thing, for whatever reason, McLaren can't seem to build a car that can qualify too brilliantly, yet races very well, add that to 2 very good overtaking drivers, one of which is probably the best out there at coming through the traffic.

The Mac's of late remind me of the William's of 2002, only in reverse. The McLaren isn't a good qualifier, yet a good racing car, the Williams was a great qualifier (in Montoya's hands at least 7 poles on the bounce iirc) yet not an ideal racing car.

Or perhaps ...

Button is a very patient driver with good racecraft and manages to get past whilst Hamilton is neither. Just as Montoya was quick over a lap with nobody around him but also lacked (and still does) racecraft, fitness for a full race journey and concentration.

Whatever you say, it gets down to the smarts of the driver

**GTRMagic** · 13 Jul 2011, 03:31 (Ref:2925844)

Maybe we wont get to see a 4th iteration of this thread Here

Raikkonen to Red Bull, Potsie to Williams Renault?

**GTRMagic** · 13 Jul 2011, 03:36 (Ref:2925845)

Joe Saward says Webber to...

Webber to HRT?

Mr Ricciardo warming the seat for him in 2011?

Mr V · 13 Jul 2011, 05:31 (Ref:2925856)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Maybe we wont get to see a 4th iteration of this thread Here

Raikkonen to Red Bull, Potsie to Williams Renault?

Hmmm, so Red Bull isn't big enough for 2 superstar drivers in Vettel and Hamilton, yet it is big enough for Vettel and Raikkonen? i wouldn't believe that story.

Not sure that Webber would be welcome back at Williams, he's aired some strong views of them since he left.

**chunterer** · 13 Jul 2011, 08:21 (Ref:2925897)

Quote:

Originally Posted by deeks6

Or perhaps ...

Button is a very patient driver with good racecraft and manages to get past whilst Hamilton is neither. Just as Montoya was quick over a lap with nobody around him but also lacked (and still does) racecraft, fitness for a full race journey and concentration.

Whatever you say, it gets down to the smarts of the driver

Sorry to keep this OT for a mo but I had to reply to this.....

Err, Montoya was one of the best overtakers F1 has ever seen, the list of examples is huge deeks. Unfortunately most peoples views of him seem to be tainted by the 'madness' of his last few races in 2006 where he was clearly under a lot of unecessary pressure from himself and his team....

Hamilton's recent driving is in fact, reminding me very much if that period of his career but I don't see Ron rushing to ease Lewis out?

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