[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[Deleted]

Disable the hybrid system and campaign it conventionally then as I said. 919's run without one before, when it was handicapped in that one Spa 6 Hours few years ago

It could then be classified as privateer nonhybrid. Perhaps not with as radical weight reduction as the others as it was originally built to hybrid rules after all. Do:

Hybrid LMP1 - 100% LMP1 base weight
Non-Hybrid "Former Hybrid" LMP1 - 97,5% LMP1 base weight
Non-Hybrid LMP1 - 95% LMP1 base weight

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Porsche has a bit of tradition with this anyway. Last achievement by Mark Donohue before his untimely death in a F1 car at the Osterreichring was taking the recently-retired 917/30 at Talladega (with Porsche engineers on hand of course) to set a closed-course speed record.

221mph.

Originally Posted by carbsmith

It would be a fine thing to do if the car was no longer eligible for the series they were racing in rather than having voluntarily quit for reasons that continuing to run the car rather contradicts.

The damn thing has floor extensions too.

I see what your saying.

This is a lot cheaper that racing and trying to beat someone else. These are easy modifications that didn’t require much development.

They should be racing, but I’ll enjoy this...

[Victor_RO]

Here's Graham's piece about the Porsche record runs:

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/0...19tribute.html

Wow.

So they're trying to get this car to run SIX SECONDS under the F1 (!!!) qualifying lap record at Spa? That's insane. That's an onboard I would love to see.

[Acid09]

This has to be one of the most shallow and meaningless PR exercises in the history of motorsport.

How pointless are lap records set with a car that in its current specification is not eligible to race in any racing series? The art of building a race car is to build a fast machine to the confines of the rules... going nuts with no restrictions is nothing impressive.

I wouldn't begrudge this if the original 919 would not be race legal anymore or if the P1 class had gone under and there was no place to race it anymore. But there is, there is even competition for Porsche, competition that would have a good chance of beating them and that they ran away from...instead they opt to do this meaningless PR stunt that involves no risk of failure in the public eye and no competition.... a PR safe-space that is sure to create nothing but positive headlines.

I really hope the WEC won't give them a platform for this farce.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Acid09

This has to be one of the most shallow and meaningless PR exercises in the history of motorsport.

How pointless are lap records set with a car that in its current specification is not eligible to race in any racing series? The art of building a race car is to build a fast machine to the confines of the rules... going nuts with no restrictions is nothing impressive.

I wouldn't begrudge this if the original 919 would not be race legal anymore or if the P1 class had gone under and there was no place to race it anymore. But there is, there is even competition for Porsche, competition that would have a good chance of beating them and that they ran away from...instead they opt to do this meaningless PR stunt that involves no risk of failure in the public eye and no competition.... a PR safe-space that is sure to create nothing but positive headlines.

I really hope the WEC won't give them a platform for this farce.

I think completely opposite to that. Going nuts without restrictions can sometimes be a recipe for something astonishing. We idolize the old age of Can-Am, and the restrictions in the tech rule book for that series were slim to non-existent, so if someone actually BUILDS something unrestricted and takes it somewhere to try it out it's immediately better than all those unrestricted "concepts" that only ever see life inside a game console. And in today's world this is pretty much as far as we go for unrestricted racing cars (if we ignore Pikes Peak).

I know it's not what we want because the car isn't actually racing any more. But we keep crying out at the same time for more freedom in the regs. And you can't fight the beancounters when their voices are amplified to a shout because of stuff outside motorsport. No matter what they do, I'm pretty sure the budget for this will be peanuts compared to a WEC season budget, so it's easier to sign off.

I think it's an interesting thing to do. There are still enough positives in this, I'll be trying to focus on those.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Acid09

This has to be one of the most shallow and meaningless PR exercises in the history of motorsport.

How pointless are lap records set with a car that in its current specification is not eligible to race in any racing series? The art of building a race car is to build a fast machine to the confines of the rules... going nuts with no restrictions is nothing impressive.

I wouldn't begrudge this if the original 919 would not be race legal anymore or if the P1 class had gone under and there was no place to race it anymore. But there is, there is even competition for Porsche, competition that would have a good chance of beating them and that they ran away from...instead they opt to do this meaningless PR stunt that involves no risk of failure in the public eye and no competition.... a PR safe-space that is sure to create nothing but positive headlines.

I really hope the WEC won't give them a platform for this farce.

Yes, it is more meaningful to do it in a race and beat opposition working to the same rules (and on the same day).

However, wanting to drive really fast is also good too.

It is a pointless exercise, but sometimes pointless is fun.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Acid09

This has to be one of the most shallow and meaningless PR exercises in the history of motorsport.

How pointless are lap records set with a car that in its current specification is not eligible to race in any racing series? The art of building a race car is to build a fast machine to the confines of the rules... going nuts with no restrictions is nothing impressive.

I wouldn't begrudge this if the original 919 would not be race legal anymore or if the P1 class had gone under and there was no place to race it anymore. But there is, there is even competition for Porsche, competition that would have a good chance of beating them and that they ran away from...instead they opt to do this meaningless PR stunt that involves no risk of failure in the public eye and no competition.... a PR safe-space that is sure to create nothing but positive headlines.

I really hope the WEC won't give them a platform for this farce.

Totally agree. Maybe I'm just not that fussed about speed records for the sake of them away from actual competition, but, yes, I see this as a pure PR exercise.

[Akrapovic]

Perhaps it is how it has been marketed that is wrong. A "farewell" tour or whatever they're calling it seems like a slap in the face. "Here's something you won't get to see race anymore, as a thank you".

Maybe it would've been better if they'd said: "Let's go a little crazy".

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Perhaps it is how it has been marketed that is wrong. A "farewell" tour or whatever they're calling it seems like a slap in the face. "Here's something you won't get to see race anymore, as a thank you".

Maybe it would've been better if they'd said: "Let's go a little crazy".

Yes, you may well be right there. As I hinted with my 'baling' comment. It's a Michael Delaney salute to Erich Stahler....... We don't want to race any more but just look how fast we can go...... . Pah.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Acid09

This has to be one of the most shallow and meaningless PR exercises in the history of motorsport.

How pointless are lap records set with a car that in its current specification is not eligible to race in any racing series? The art of building a race car is to build a fast machine to the confines of the rules... going nuts with no restrictions is nothing impressive.

I wouldn't begrudge this if the original 919 would not be race legal anymore or if the P1 class had gone under and there was no place to race it anymore. But there is, there is even competition for Porsche, competition that would have a good chance of beating them and that they ran away from...instead they opt to do this meaningless PR stunt that involves no risk of failure in the public eye and no competition.... a PR safe-space that is sure to create nothing but positive headlines.

I really hope the WEC won't give them a platform for this farce.

Couldn't agree more with this.

[Deleted]

Instead of pointlessness, what they should do is hold an "Volkswagen Unlimited Championship" or something titled like that, as support for some existing event, like German Grand Prix or DTM or whatever. You would have these chassis going against each other - with no restrictions or handicaps whatsoever - in 45-60 minute race:

"Class 1" - Porsche 919 Hybrid, Audi R18
"Class 2" - Porsche RS Spyder, Audi R10
"Class 3" - Porsche 911 GT1 EVO, Audi R8

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

I think completely opposite to that. Going nuts without restrictions can sometimes be a recipe for something astonishing. We idolize the old age of Can-Am, and the restrictions in the tech rule book for that series were slim to non-existent, so if someone actually BUILDS something unrestricted and takes it somewhere to try it out it's immediately better than all those unrestricted "concepts" that only ever see life inside a game console. And in today's world this is pretty much as far as we go for unrestricted racing cars (if we ignore Pikes Peak).

I think the Can-Am comparison is way off. Can Am was racing after all, even though Porsche operated with more resources than others they at least engaged in competition on track.

The car still needed to last, the drivers could make errors in traffic etc. There was risk involved... there is no risk here, it's all PR, a good outcome for them is pretty much guaranteed. They will know beforehand whether the car will be able to get into the desired laptime-window thanks to simulations, the car won't have to last for longer than a few laps.... that only leaves driver error as the only possible risk which factor is well manageable if you're the only car on track!

It all just reeks of wanting to grab some cheap, risk-free, PR, a cunning plan from someone who realized the company could grab headlines even without having to compete against others.

Porsche's sudden and uncalled-for withdrawal of the WEC almost killed the P1 class, it was only Toyota's commitment and the privateer's surge that helped save the class..Porsche would have let it gone up in flames, for no good reason other fearing that they will get beat. There was no financial necessity to pull out, Porsche makes tons of money, they could have downscaled the marketing spending of programme, run it with a privateer who brings in sponsors etc.

Say what you want about Audi, but they would have never done something like this. They always earned their headlines fair and square all these years, they went out there and they raced... sometimes not facing the most capable competition but that wasn't their fault, at least they were out there and gave everyone a fair shot to compete against them.

It's nice to see TMG filling these shoes now and it's great to see so many privateers answering the call as well. I'd much rather support them and their legal cars than this charade of a "farewell-tour".

[CTD]

I'm really sorry to see how negatively the Porsche pull out is being viewed.

If I were a manufacture considering joining WEC and saw how many of the hardcore fans react(ed) upon Porsches withdrawal, I would seriously consider taking my money elsewhere.

If I were to put it harshly, the negative attitude towards Porsche is a spoiled and an ungrateful opinion!

Porsche participated for four years, which to my memory is a decent commitment, compared to manufactures through-out the history of Le Mans and any sportscar series.
Out the four years, they won Le Mans three times and the WEC three times. ei. they completed what they came for.
They gave us three good years with Audi and Toyota, one good year with Toyota and if they simply felt that they where done for this time and continuing the development of the 919 was unfeasible. Then now was the perfect time to quit before starting to develop a brand new LMP1.

The regulations which was put in place for 2018 which regulates the Privateers with Toyota, keeping the Toyota on the same pace as 2017, wouldn't have happened if Porsche was still in the game.
If Porsche saw that the 919 simply couldn't keep up with the TS050 for 2018, then they simply decided to leave on the pinnacle.

The way I still see it is that the 919 is outdated compared to what the TS050 could have been this year. Therefore I will still rather see the 919 Tribute blasting some amazing laps than it just standing in a museum. This is the only true alternative there is and nagging on Porsche for not going full on racing is just ungrateful compared to the four good years they gave us.

I welcome this Time Attack, wish Porsche best of luck and hope them back to La Sarthe and WEC in near future.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by CTD

I'm really sorry to see how negatively the Porsche pull out is being viewed.

If I were a manufacture considering joining WEC and saw how many of the hardcore fans react(ed) upon Porsches withdrawal, I would seriously consider taking my money elsewhere.

If I were to put it harshly, the negative attitude towards Porsche is a spoiled and an ungrateful opinion!

You make it sound like Porsche (or any other manufacturer) is doing people a favor by going racing. They do it because it makes sense for them either because it makes money (GT3), there's a return in technology development or PR, in the WEC's case it was the latter two.

That's why they were there, so stop talking about people being "ungrateful", Porsche used the WEC for their gains which is fine, that's what racing for manufacturers is about and if you do it the right way. This farewell tour is not the right way though, it's wanting to reap the rewards without committing like everybody else.

And while we're at it, their three Le Mans wins don't look quite as glorious if you look at how two of the came to pass, they're majorly lucked out the second time and barely escaped by the skin of their teeth the third time.

Also, four years isn't particularly long for such a large-scale factory programme if you compare to Audi, Toyota and Peugeot, the latter of which were forced out by their parent company being in major turmoil. Nothing like that was happening with Porsche, they just wanted to quit while they were ahead, a completely selfish decision that put the whole series at risk... so please stop talking like fans owe Porsche something when they have acted nothing but selfish in their decision making with no regards for their competitors or the series they are still in.

[Adam43]

I’m not sure it’s that serious.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

You make it sound like Porsche (or any other manufacturer) is doing people a favor by going racing. They do it because it makes sense for them either because it makes money (GT3), there's a return in technology development or PR, in the WEC's case it was the latter two.

That's why they were there, so stop talking about people being "ungrateful", Porsche used the WEC for their gains which is fine, that's what racing for manufacturers is about and if you do it the right way. This farewell tour is not the right way though, it's wanting to reap the rewards without committing like everybody else.

And while we're at it, their three Le Mans wins don't look quite as glorious if you look at how two of the came to pass, they're majorly lucked out the second time and barely escaped by the skin of their teeth the third time.

Also, four years isn't particularly long for such a large-scale factory programme if you compare to Audi, Toyota and Peugeot, the latter of which were forced out by their parent company being in major turmoil. Nothing like that was happening with Porsche, they just wanted to quit while they were ahead, a completely selfish decision that put the whole series at risk... so please stop talking like fans owe Porsche something when they have acted nothing but selfish in their decision making with no regards for their competitors or the series they are still in.

No they don't do as a favour for the fans. You are right, they do it for the PR and Technology development, so let's look at that:
PR: They won three out of four. They pretty much have the PR needed here.
Technology: Well the current regulations doesn't push the technology any further and the 2020 Regs are still unsure. Would you really invest the money for a car for two years!?

Regarding Large-scale factory programs, let's look back:
Toyota: 2012 to 2018: 7 years.
Porsche: 2014 to 2017: 4 years.
Audi: 1999 to 2016: 15 years.
Peugeot: 2007 to 2011: 5 years.
Nissan: 1997 to 1999: 3 years.
BMW: 1998 and 1999: 2 years.
Toyota: 1998 and 1999: 2 years.
Porsche: 1996 to 1998: 3 years.
Peugeot: 1991 to 1993: 3 years.
Toyota: 1983 to 1994: 11 years.

With this I haven't counted in Nissan (GT-R LM), Panoz and Caddilac as they are harder to count as "Large-scale."

Porsche did what they came to do, and that was winning Le Mans and WEC. Building a car for two years with uncertain regulations for 2020 is simply foolish.
Toyota got a good shot as they can stick with the TS050 for two years without being pushed by a major manufacture. (I'm not arguing that this is not fair, I am grateful for Toyota sticking around)


As you very clearly state yourself, racing is business for Porsche and the manufactures, in that case there is nothing selfish in pulling out, if it simply isn't good for business.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Acid09

And while we're at it, their three Le Mans wins don't look quite as glorious if you look at how two of the came to pass, they're majorly lucked out the second time and barely escaped by the skin of their teeth the third time.

What a bunch of nonsense.

'Luck' is such an overused word for lasting all the way in. And it doesn't matter if you were 99,9% of the way the better team if you're not there for the remaining 0,1%.

If anything, those years negatively reflect on Toyota more than anything.

[TRuss]

How could anyone figure that Porsche's parent company wasn't in "turmoil" is beyond me.

[Irie]

Originally Posted by CTD

I'm really sorry to see how negatively the Porsche pull out is being viewed.

If I were a manufacture considering joining WEC and saw how many of the hardcore fans react(ed) upon Porsches withdrawal, I would seriously consider taking my money elsewhere.

If I were to put it harshly, the negative attitude towards Porsche is a spoiled and an ungrateful opinion!

Porsche participated for four years, which to my memory is a decent commitment, compared to manufactures through-out the history of Le Mans and any sportscar series.
Out the four years, they won Le Mans three times and the WEC three times. ei. they completed what they came for.
They gave us three good years with Audi and Toyota, one good year with Toyota and if they simply felt that they where done for this time and continuing the development of the 919 was unfeasible. Then now was the perfect time to quit before starting to develop a brand new LMP1.

The regulations which was put in place for 2018 which regulates the Privateers with Toyota, keeping the Toyota on the same pace as 2017, wouldn't have happened if Porsche was still in the game.
If Porsche saw that the 919 simply couldn't keep up with the TS050 for 2018, then they simply decided to leave on the pinnacle.

The way I still see it is that the 919 is outdated compared to what the TS050 could have been this year. Therefore I will still rather see the 919 Tribute blasting some amazing laps than it just standing in a museum. This is the only true alternative there is and nagging on Porsche for not going full on racing is just ungrateful compared to the four good years they gave us.

I welcome this Time Attack, wish Porsche best of luck and hope them back to La Sarthe and WEC in near future.

If they simply achieved what they wanted why did they first commit til the end of 2018?

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Yeah sorry, but completely ignoring the huge elephant in the room that is dieselgate is not going to fly with me. I'm willing to cut Porsche a little bit of slack since I believe they did want to continue with the 919 against Toyota until the new regs (they had a gentlemen's agreement to a chassis freeze until then to save money). But all the talk of 'they achieved what they set out to do' is hindsight. The programme was culled because of dieselgate and only because of that.

[gustavobamba]

Sorry guy's but for me this "adventure" is Porsche "creating" their new halo project... 2021 F1engine.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by CTD

If Porsche saw that the 919 simply couldn't keep up with the TS050 for 2018, then they simply decided to leave on the pinnacle.

The way I still see it is that the 919 is outdated compared to what the TS050 could have been this year.

Blatantly false.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/p...-through-2019/

[TF110]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Blatantly false.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/p...-through-2019/

They agreed to it to save costs, but they were worried because Toyota's chassis was newer. When they were asked about that though, they said the 919 could see big improvements still. They were quicker than Toyota with their high downforce package until Toyota put on some extra diveplanes and redesigned the front end. I think they would have been competitive, but Toyota has stayed still mostly because Porsche announced they were leaving.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Blatantly false.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/p...-through-2019/

Please notice the date of the article.
It is made more than a year ago, which is before Porsche saw the true pace of the TS050 at Le Mans.

[carbsmith]

So you want me to believe it makes any sense for Porsche to throw away a chance at a 4th consecutive Le Mans win because they might get out-qualified? We're all sitting here thinking the privateers are in the cat bird's seat to win at Le Mans with Toyota's record, but nah, Porsche, not even worth trying, better close up shop and use the budget for demo runs.