[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[Teretonga]

One view of what is going on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tceF55Ug_Ms

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Maybe Victoria will start a new team called Maxosucar and it will be awful.

Plenty of sugars in Red Bull but.. might be a hit commercially, if not on track…

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

One view of what is going on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tceF55Ug_Ms

I think that video is a basic summary of what has been widely reported and I can't disagree with what it says, but I would be watchful of trusting that YT channel. If you look at it in total (look at the thumbnails for any of the videos) it is clearly a clickbait channel solely for the purposed of generating ad-revenue. Content might even be AI generated (doesn't mean fake, but just harvested from elsewhere).

Richard

[chillibowl]

random thought/speculation...

how much of a threat did Max saying he would leave RB really create? for it to be credible, he would have to had some sort of terms/offer to immediately jump to another team right?

so did he have an offer from Merc or Ferrari incase RB called his bluff? would that offer also have included hiring Marko? who else from that team would also jump ship?

while Merc would seems like the natural fit (they are looking for a Ham replacement), but a Ferrari switch is far more intriguing in that Ferrari have been poaching a lot of RB talent and taking Max (selling off Chuck presumably), Marko, and then maybe even Newey decides to go all while leaving Christian Briatore behind has a bit of Benetton dream team moving to Ferrari nostalgia to it?

setting up a rematch between Max and Ham now both in a Newey designed Ferrari could be one of the biggest sports stories in generations. rumble in the jungle level hype!

pure fantasy of course, but that would be next level.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

how much of a threat did Max saying he would leave RB really create? for it to be credible, he would have to had some sort of terms/offer to immediately jump to another team right?

Hard to say how credible. I think there are two parts to it... Availability to go somewhere and a willingness for him to actually do it.

As to the first, I expect any team would do whatever they could to bring in onboard. The man is on fire. He couldn't be more in demand. While drivers have break clauses I wonder if teams might do the same. For example if you are big team X and you have a driver pairing of an experience and less experienced driver. I can imagine for the less experienced driver that it might be easier for the team to include additional break clauses such as performance and availability of named other drivers (i.e. if Max becomes available, sorry, you are gone.) As to the second. Only Max knows if he was willing to walk away. But he looks to have a good poker face!

Overall, give how desirable it is to have Max and Max was telling Red Bull in the public that he might walk, I think they would have to be quite brave to assume he is bluffing and for Red Bull to dare him to leave. Given Marko is still there, I think he won that battle (for the moment).

Originally Posted by chillibowl

so did he have an offer from Merc or Ferrari incase RB called his bluff? would that offer also have included hiring Marko? who else from that team would also jump ship?

There are offers and then there are offers. Toto was quick to say publicly that he would bring both Max and Marko over. How serious was that? Who knows, but it was telling. I would assume that Max has had many informal feelers of "If you are serious, we would welcome you".

Regarding Marko, my sense is that Max is supportive of him as Marko supported his entry into F1. But that I can imagine that if Marko leaves Red Bull, he will not go anywhere else even if somewhere else is welcoming. I generally don't see anyone bringing in Marko based upon his own merits. As others have called out, Marko's value was to the Mateschitz while that family was controlling the F1 team as well as providing other value to the team. But Marko as proxy for Mateschitz power is not value Marko can take elsewhere. It only had value inside the Red Bull organization. So in short, I don't think it has to be a package deal for Max. I think Max is trying to support Marko while he is inside Red Bull. But what do I know. This is pure speculation on my part.

As you call out later in your post, where and how Newey fits into this and where his allegiance lie seems to be an unknown.

Overall it seems things have settled down on this topic. If the complainant truly is going to push this down the legal path, then that may be a slow grind. If the leaks were done internally to force Red Bull's hand regarding Horner, I would say that while embarrassing, it has failed (so far). I think people are just waiting to see what happens on the legal front, if CH might pull off a deal to purchase a controlling interest in the team (I assume he was getting financial help and I wonder if those who were helping him get the money feel he is overly "hot" right now to touch) and what if anything happens conclusively within the Red Bull organization (and how that might flow downhill into Red Bull F1).

Richard

[S griffin]

I'm sure Max is putting himself out there just in case. However he has everything he wants at RBR atm. Even if Marko leaves, there's still plenty of other things to keep him there. I'm sure Toto would love to have Max for his experience and the fact he's more than a safe pair of hands.

Maybe this whole case with Horner will die down and the questions about what Max does will go away. I can see him staying with RBR for the next couple of seasons at least

[VIVA GT]

Slightly off topic for the way that this thread has now evolved but earlier in the week I finally started watching the latest Drive to Survive series. The first episode started late December in the Horner household with Father Christmas surprising the children. I did chuckle when Father Christmas asked the kids "Had Daddy been a good boy this year?" Maybe the question would have been more relevant this December!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

However he has everything he wants at RBR atm.

I don't think we know the answer to that question. So for example, if Max prioritized ONLY pure car and team performance "on the track", then why was he signaling regarding Marko? I think there are different levels and priorities as to what Max wants (just like anyone else).

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Slightly off topic for the way that this thread has now evolved but earlier in the week I finally started watching the latest Drive to Survive series. The first episode started late December in the Horner household with Father Christmas surprising the children. I did chuckle when Father Christmas asked the kids "Had Daddy been a good boy this year?" Maybe the question would have been more relevant this December!

That DTS segment did generate some early memes in social media for this CH drama topic.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I don't think we know the answer to that question. So for example, if Max prioritized ONLY pure car and team performance "on the track", then why was he signaling regarding Marko? I think there are different levels and priorities as to what Max wants (just like anyone else).

Richard

indeed, but in a weird way things here couldn't have actually worked out better for Max?

Horner's palace coup seems to have been stifled (for now) without losing him as one of, if not outright, the best TPs in the paddock, Marko his pal remains with magic contract signing powers, his already lucrative long term deal now offers him more flexibility, Newey remains building him world class cars, his dad gets to stay his dad basking in his son's glory.

and everyone is seemingly even more beholden to Max for keeping the family together...and through all of this his driving has only gotten better.

if we slightly change our perspectives on this, could this have transpired any better for Prince Maxiavelli?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

indeed, but in a weird way things here couldn't have actually worked out better for Max?

Horner's palace coup seems to have been stifled (for now) without losing him as one of, if not outright, the best TPs in the paddock, Marko his pal remains with magic contract signing powers, his already lucrative long term deal now offers him more flexibility, Newey remains building him world class cars, his dad gets to stay his dad basking in his son's glory.

and everyone is seemingly even more beholden to Max for keeping the family together...and through all of this his driving has only gotten better.

if we slightly change our perspectives on this, could this have transpired any better for Prince Maxiavelli?

Horner's palace coup?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Horner's palace coup?

meant that as a reference of Horner's alleged attempt to buy the team.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

meant that as a reference of Horner's alleged attempt to buy the team.

Alleged being the operative word.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Horner's palace coup?

It is assumed that the 51%/49% split of Red Bull control flows down into Red Bull F1. So the Yoovidhya controls both Red Bull and Red Bull F1. Apparently CH was/is working with Yoovidhya family to buy an interest in the RB F1 team without involvement of the Mateschitz family. It's unclear if CH is buying the full 51% and becomes solo controlling interest or if it is a lesser amount. I also assume CH is partnering with others for funding. Maybe he and partners will control 51% and CH would be the controlling interest within that 51%? No clue if this is still happening behind the scenes or not.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Alleged being the operative word.

Yes. Widely speculated in social media and reported in lesser media. No confirmation and maybe none will ever happen. Red Bull is not publicly traded, so I think lots of this stuff doesn't have to be reported publicly.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard C

It is assumed that the 51%/49% split of Red Bull control flows down into Red Bull F1. So the Yoovidhya controls both Red Bull and Red Bull F1. Apparently CH was/is working with Yoovidhya family to buy an interest in the RB F1 team without involvement of the Mateschitz family. Richard

I'm well aware of the 51%/49% Red Bull split. 51% Yoovidhya, 49% Mateschitz. That all goes back to when the company was founded.

Originally Posted by Richard C

It's unclear if CH is buying the full 51% and becomes solo controlling interest or if it is a lesser amount. I also assume CH is partnering with others for funding. Maybe he and partners will control 51% and CH would be the controlling interest within that 51%? No clue if this is still happening behind the scenes or not.
Richard

At this juncture, I don't think anyone can assume anything. No one knows what is actually happening and therefore things are bound to be unclear.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Yes. Widely speculated in social media and reported in lesser media. No confirmation and maybe none will ever happen. Red Bull is not publicly traded, so I think lots of this stuff doesn't have to be reported publicly.

Richard

The media thrive on conjecture.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm well aware of the 51%/49% Red Bull split. 51% Yoovidhya, 49% Mateschitz. That all goes back to when the company was founded.

Response is to you, but in a public forum, so it is also for the larger audience. Of which some may not know. Just trying to provide depth to the discussion.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

At this juncture, I don't think anyone can assume anything. No one knows what is actually happening and therefore things are bound to be unclear.

Assumptions and speculation are what they are. These types of assumptions and speculation is a key driver of discussion in this forum. Who will win? Who is the best driver? Etc.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The media thrive on conjecture.

And sometimes they are correct? Is there a larger point you are looking to make?

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Response is to you, but in a public forum, so it is also for the larger audience. Of which some may not know. Just trying to provide depth to the discussion.


Assumptions and speculation are what they are. These types of assumptions and speculation is a key driver of discussion in this forum. Who will win? Who is the best driver? Etc.

Richard

Indeed, some assumption and speculation can be a driver of discussion in this forum, especially when there is fact to back those assumptions and speculations. However, if assumption and speculation is only driven by conjecture, then it is rather meaningless.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard C

And sometimes they are correct? Is there a larger point you are looking to make?

Richard

Sometimes, not always.

[v8supes]

How much longer has Perez got?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by v8supes

How much longer has Perez got?

Same for Riciardo.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by v8supes

How much longer has Perez got?

Horner said after the race that Perez had damage to the floor of his car, which was done at or around the time that he passed Alonso & that it had a big impact on performance, tyre wear etc.

Based on that, I can't see them changing anything on the driving front at this stage.

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Same for Riciardo.

According to rumour? Marko gave him until Miami. I hope Liams had a seat fitting as at this rate, as much as i love Ric, hes probably not going to turn it around.

While Lawson may be NZ, it will take about 3 minutes for Aus to claim him.... they can have Russel Crowe back in exchange...