Audi LMP1 Discussion

[chernaudi]

I'm still tempted to think that Audi are having aero issues--again, it seems that while they modified the tail (increased camber), they didn't seem to make any serious compensatory change to the nose.

I can't help but think that Audi are having aero balance issues that are on top of only having about half the hybrid power of Porsche and, probably a bigger problem, they don't have the options of deploying it like Porsche have.

Anyone think that Audi and Porsche might bring some LM kit parts to Fuji because of that long straight?

[chernaudi]

BTW, from the broadcast last night, Audi will still be at COTA today though Tuesday rebuilding their cars and testing.

[ederss7]

Someone please refresh my memory. What was the biggest reason for Audi winning the first two races? The only thing I remember is they won using their HD aero at Silverstone. I also remember that the top speed difference there between Porsche and Audi was huge, yet they managed to win.
I think is very easy for us to say they are lost regarding their aero package, but if I had to guess what they are doing wrong, it relies on how they managed to win the first two races. They were impressed by the LD at Spa and decided to stick with it in the remaining races. It seems they sacrificed pace over top speed. At Silverstone they were sitting ducks on the straights and managed to win. At Le Mans the straights are so long that at the end of them Audi's engine started to minimize the difference of hybrid power. At Spa that also happened at the end of the Kemmel straight. I think the only track they should use their LD aero is Bahrein, maybe Fuji too. They can be sitting ducks on the straights, but better overall pace and tyre management should overcome that.
Lol, I wanted to say one thing but end up saying another completely different.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by ederss7

Someone please refresh my memory. What was the biggest reason for Audi winning the first two races? The only thing I remember is they won using their HD aero at Silverstone. I also remember that the top speed difference there between Porsche and Audi was huge, yet they managed to win.
I think is very easy for us to say they are lost regarding their aero package, but if I had to guess what they are doing wrong, it relies on how they managed to win the first two races. They were impressed by the LD at Spa and decided to stick with it in the remaining races. It seems they sacrificed pace over top speed. At Silverstone they were sitting ducks on the straights and managed to win. At Le Mans the straights are so long that at the end of them Audi's engine started to minimize the difference of hybrid power. At Spa that also happened at the end of the Kemmel straight. I think the only track they should use their LD aero is Bahrein, maybe Fuji too. They can be sitting ducks on the straights, but better overall pace and tyre management should overcome that.
Lol, I wanted to say one thing but end up saying another completely different.

And that LD package they have been using is different than the one from Spa. One big difference is the openings under the headlights, which some have speculated were for creating an air curtain effect. They have been covered since the first day at Le Mans

It worked at Le Mans, and I also don't understand why they kept using that configuration since then.

[chernaudi]

My line of thinking is that Audi added a much more aggressively cambered tail trailing edge since LM, but the nose has been in LM spec aside from the angled up front diffuser flap (as at Spa) and twin dive planes. IMHO, the car does seem a bit unbalanced compared to either Silverstone or Spa.

Maybe opening those holes in the nose might help with aero balance, but I'm thinking that by sticking with the slightly altered LM package (instead of keeping it as at Spa or re-adopting some iteration of the Silverstone package) that Audi have given up a bit of overall performance in favor of top speed. Audi were like slugs down the straights at Silverstone, but where so much quicker in the corners that they had a huge advantage in overall laptime and long run pace. Same thing happened at Spa, where they were carrying more downforce than Porsche were even with both cars in what was at the time to be their basic LM packages.

Also, more downforce should also make it a bit easier for them to double stint, as both Audis did but didn't make inroads until they did two-tire stops.

[carbsmith]

Porsche didn't have a high downforce package until Nurburgring It's easy to say Audi had a pace advantage at Silverstone but we don't know how much of that was them and how much of that was Porsche, considering Porsche's aero seems to still be overall on the lower downforce side.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

My line of thinking is that Audi added a much more aggressively cambered tail trailing edge since LM, but the nose has been in LM spec aside from the angled up front diffuser flap (as at Spa) and twin dive planes. IMHO, the car does seem a bit unbalanced compared to either Silverstone or Spa.

Maybe opening those holes in the nose might help with aero balance, but I'm thinking that by sticking with the slightly altered LM package (instead of keeping it as at Spa or re-adopting some iteration of the Silverstone package) that Audi have given up a bit of overall performance in favor of top speed. Audi were like slugs down the straights at Silverstone, but where so much quicker in the corners that they had a huge advantage in overall laptime and long run pace. Same thing happened at Spa, where they were carrying more downforce than Porsche were even with both cars in what was at the time to be their basic LM packages.

Also, more downforce should also make it a bit easier for them to double stint, as both Audis did but didn't make inroads until they did two-tire stops.

The problem typically isn't that the cars are just running around with much more rear downforce than they do front downforce. They can always reach a balance, but it will always be at a cost. If the gains they were expecting from the front end aero did not come to fruition on track then they have to trim the rear aero to regain the balance. They won't just stackup rear aero and drive around with unstable cars. But it does mean they would run with less overall downforce (but still a balanced car), just less grip in the higher speed twisties.

[Simmi]

Auto-Bild now reporting that Audi will enter F1 and is likely to shut down it's WEC and DTM programmes.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/audi-...t-6078603.html

[TF110]

If thats true, why are they developing a class 1 car? F1 is a waste of time. Youre not going to be competitive since theres a huge lack of track testing and limited engine development. Honda has struggled and theyre partnered with McLaren. The new rules will be no better. I have a hard time believing this.

[YorkshireLad]

Audi leave, for f1?!? The sinking ship. I think not.

[ederss7]

IMO it doesn't make sense entering F1 at this stage. Mercedes and Ferrari would be years ahead in development. Also, the regulation makes it very difficult to come back if you don't get things right straightaway. Just look at Honda's strugglings. Too many risks. F1 is a joke as it is at the moment.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Auto-Bild now reporting that Audi will enter F1 and is likely to shut down it's WEC and DTM programmes.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/audi-...t-6078603.html

I guess this constitutes a response to Auto-Bild's speculation

[chernaudi]

Audi entering F1? Volkswagen Group entering F1? How many rumors of such have been around for the past 15 years? I'll believe it when I see it.

[Pandemonium]

Lol fake. Such attention whores and excuse my language but that is what they are.

[GasperG]

With the billions they will have to pay because of cheating EPA, we can be happy if they stay in LMP1.

[Starfish Primer]

This scandal could affect the TDI brand, Could this be the end of the endurance diesels?

[chernaudi]

When one considers that the US Gov't didn't milk billions out of GM for the ignition switch deal, I doubt that they'll get anywhere close to that much out of VW over cheating EPA regs. Certainly, at least VW's issue didn't kill a large number of Americans like GM's crap did.

But the rumors of Audi ditching diesel in favor of a TFSI gasoline engine have been around since Ullrich Baretzky designed what was intended to become the Global Race Engine. That was back in 2009, and since then the GRE program has gone no where. And even though he still wants to do another TFSI LMP1 race engine before his retirement, I suspect he'll still do what Audi Sport wants him to.

The biggest reason right now why Audi might abandon the TDI engine in racing is if they need a much smaller engine than a V6 for endurance racing, mostly for packaging a huge battery-based hybrid system in the future.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by TF110

If thats true, why are they developing a class 1 car? F1 is a waste of time. I have a hard time believing this.

same here. To me this is all BS.

J Jay hit the nail on the head when he addressed this(when it first came out on BBC under Eddie Jordan's call).

[deggis]

Originally Posted by GasperG

With the billions they will have to pay because of cheating EPA, we can be happy if they stay in LMP1.

This, regardless of whether the F1 scenario is true or not. Stock plummeting -30% and they've already set aside 6 billion usd but the probes are now being started in other countries, and EU-wide one could be coming too (tests in US are different and demonize NOx a lot more but amount of diesel cars in US is miniscule compared to EU).

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0RL0II20150923

http://thejudge13.com/2015/09/21/vw-...d-bull-racing/

[deggis]

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[Mal]

Of course now might be the perfect time to announce an F1 entry in order to try and divert attention away from the scandal...

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Mal

Of course now might be the perfect time to announce an F1 entry in order to try and divert attention away from the scandal...

I don't think that would apply here, for one F1 isn't that big in America (where the biggest ramifications will be felt) and honestly I think most people would see straight through it. This is very closely linked to VW pushing diesel cars and I don't think there's ever been a diesel F1 car.

And in related news, Winterkorn is out. All that political manoeuvring to oust Piech and he's gone a few months later. I posted on here yesterday that Matthias Muller (Porsche CEO) is the most likely to step up, let's see if that plays out.

[kvenom]

Wasn't Winterkorn the main player pushing for F1?

[J Jay]

I don't think so (but I'm happy to be corrected). IIRC Winterkorn had built a reputation as something of an "engineer's executive," which made his position that much more untenable following this particular scandal.

I think it was more the case that Piech was firmly against a VW brand entering F1 rather than any other board member being firmly for it.

[chernaudi]

Several people in Wintercorn's cadre were trying to pull the motorsports divisions within Volkswagen Group in that direction it seems. With his resignation, and doubtlessly others associated with him being fired, forced to resign and/or demoted, those who were potentially pulling for a VAG to F1 effort will have even less say come soon since it seems that those tied with the Porsche/Piech families will have majority say over what VAG does from now on, especially racing in this context.

Porsche are very against F1 and want to concentrate on road racing where they can at least legitimately preach what they race is, technologically at least, is what they sell.

Also it's an ironic note that VAG's most profitable divisions, at least in NA, seem to be Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini and Bentley, who all, in one way or another, are deeply involved in road racing/sportscar racing.