Audi LMP1 Discussion

[ederss7]

I wonder whether Aethra is just a sponsor or they manufacture parts for Audi. I would never thrust in a Brazilian company, especially if I was German.

[chernaudi]

Last I checked, Athera is basically like Unipart is in the UK, basically automotive logistics. However, Audi does have a factory in Brazil along with VW.

Also going back to COTA, I still wonder what those "brake ducts" were cooling based on their size. But if you look at the LM spec car during testing and from the race at Spa, you can see that they've been there since early on and that Audi had just decaled blanking plates over them.

[chernaudi]

This is my Audi LMP1 "wish list" to go along with ones that I've done for Porsche and Toyota about possible changes for next season, as well as what is known already to be stuff to look for.

We know that next year will have the 6th generation of the Audi R18, and we know that it'll be basically a new car (like with Toyota) with a new tub and a revised hybrid system, with a switch from the flywheel generator to a battery pack. We also know that 6MJ is virtually a certainty at this stage.

Questions/"wishes":

Legality bubble fastback roofline like what Porsche and Ligier have, as well as a rules compliant version of that used on the older R18s.

Return for real to the E-Turbo concept--converted VTG turbo or a from-scratch electronic turbocharger?

Hybrid systems powering all four wheels--I think that front wheels can only handle about 300-350bhp, so if Audi get significantly over 300bhp from the new system, could they also have a RWD hybrid motor?

Dedicated sprint/general purpose package for more races--with more power and torque to push around the car, that means probably more downforce, and hence Audi will probably have a more downforce biased kit similar possibly to their Silverstone kit to be run at more races next season except possibly for tracks like Spa or Fuji.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by CTD

Let's not let this spin too far out.
Remember that there has been scandals involving deadly crashes, where it has been forgotten within weeks. (ei. Toyota Airbags and Speeder, GM ignition cut).

This scandal is huge now, but it will blow over.
(the stock has already stabilised)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of those cases were due to deliberate attempts by the manufacturer to cheat the regs, not bend the rules, but break them. This will be a game changer.

I expect the competition to milk this situation to the max. So new details, lawsuits etc. will pop up every once in a while to keep this topic in the headlines (in the U.S.).

It may also have implications for the Audi diesel P1 programme. In the US the reputation of diesel technology may be about to go through the floor, meanwhile in the EU there seems to be a political trend to move away from the (still very popular) diesels, state regs are likely to change dramatically.

[chernaudi]

Advertising-wise it probably won't hurt Audi as far as the LMP1 program--there's not even TDI branding on the R18 anymore, and there really hasn't been since 2012. It's either been Audi e-tron hybrid tech or Audi Ultra lightweight tech.

In fact, newer fans probably won't know the car has a diesel engine in it unless they're told up front.

[Pandamasque]

Commentators and even the non-specialist media mention it all the time describing how the three competitors differ from each other.

Also the e-tron (hybrid and pure electric) model range is about to grow. The tech in the race cars will probably mirror the direction the road e-tron cars take. The current A3 e-tron is a TFSI petrol plug-in hybrid.

[chernaudi]

Audi already have a battery pack hybrid for the R18 next year, certain to be at least rated for 6MJ. Only question will it power only the front wheels or all four wheels.

Also with the switch to the batter pack, I wonder if Audi will revert back to LHD for the next generation R18 e-tron? That'd be the first Audi LMP since the R15 to have LHD and the first closed Audi (counting the Bentley GTPs) since the R8C a decade in a half ago.

[ederss7]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi already have a battery pack hybrid for the R18 next year, certain to be at least rated for 6MJ. Only question will it power only the front wheels or all four wheels.

Also with the switch to the batter pack, I wonder if Audi will revert back to LHD for the next generation R18 e-tron? That'd be the first Audi LMP since the R15 to have LHD and the first closed Audi (counting the Bentley GTPs) since the R8C a decade in a half ago.

What do you mean by LHD? Left hand drive? And what about the weight concerns? Aren't Batteries heavier than flywheel?

[knighty]

will be interesting if this saga has any effect on the Audi race teams diesel technology........it really would not surprise me to see Audi very quickly add an urea-injection (add-blue) system to their race cars in an attempt to market that their TDi engines are now doing everything possible to make them emissions compliant as possible.......failing that it also wouldnt surprise me to see both Porsche and Audi LMP1 teams scrapped in order to help pay the monumental fines worldwide, its going to get worse before it gets better

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34377443

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of those cases were due to deliberate attempts by the manufacturer to cheat the regs, not bend the rules, but break them. This will be a game changer.

I expect the competition to milk this situation to the max. So new details, lawsuits etc. will pop up every once in a while to keep this topic in the headlines (in the U.S.).

It may also have implications for the Audi diesel P1 programme. In the US the reputation of diesel technology may be about to go through the floor, meanwhile in the EU there seems to be a political trend to move away from the (still very popular) diesels, state regs are likely to change dramatically.

GM deliberately tried to silence the case for a decade:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera...switch_scandal
The general opinion here in Denmark seems to be that this is a media circus which not many people care about. The media use it as a break in the immigration/fugitive story, as this has gotten "old".
I'm still sticking to that this story will fade away once the recall has been made.

[chernaudi]

In Europe, that seems to be the issue since NOx isn't stigmatized as a pollutant like in North America. Also, diesel engines are far more popular in Europe for passenger cars than in NA, too. In general, in Europe even with a possible EU probe to make sure that VW technically wasn't breaking any laws (which according to the Midweek Motorsport post, they weren't breaking the letter of the rule in the EU), the US, diesel engine critics and environmentalist with an agenda are making a mountain out of an ant hill.

And just like the GM ignition switch scandal, this will largely go away as soon as VW recalls the cars, implements the fix, and will (like GM) settle fines and lawsuits for relative pennies on the dollar. Rightfully or wrongfully, that's the way things do work in the US.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

In Europe, that seems to be the issue since NOx isn't stigmatized as a pollutant like in North America. Also, diesel engines are far more popular in Europe for passenger cars than in NA, too. In general, in Europe even with a possible EU probe to make sure that VW technically wasn't breaking any laws (which according to the Midweek Motorsport post, they weren't breaking the letter of the rule in the EU), the US, diesel engine critics and environmentalist with an agenda are making a mountain out of an ant hill.

And just like the GM ignition switch scandal, this will largely go away as soon as VW recalls the cars, implements the fix, and will (like GM) settle fines and lawsuits for relative pennies on the dollar. Rightfully or wrongfully, that's the way things do work in the US.

We all have different opinions on this. A few counterpoints...

1. I think long term... yes this may go the GM route in that like most things time heals all. So this is not the death of VW.

2. the GM situation is similar and not at the same time. GM more heavily impacted a smaller group of people (people died). But for those who didn't die, the repair brought the vehicle back to an acceptable state. VW hasn't killed anyone, but likely will impact more people in the long run. It is not clear what a "fix" would be for existing cars. My understanding is that the impacted vehicles do not have urea injection. Will they have to retrofit a urea injection system? How much would that cost to engineer and do? Can it easily be added to an existing design in the field. Will it cut into some space in the car somewhere that effectively diminishes the value of the car?

I would not be surprised if they end up with a buy back program in the US.

Richard

[chernaudi]

To be honest, I wish I was a better artist and knew how to post stuff like that so I can post an artist's rendering of what I think that the 2016 Audi would maybe look like.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi already have a battery pack hybrid for the R18 next year, certain to be at least rated for 6MJ. Only question will it power only the front wheels or all four wheels.

Also with the switch to the batter pack, I wonder if Audi will revert back to LHD for the next generation R18 e-tron? That'd be the first Audi LMP since the R15 to have LHD and the first closed Audi (counting the Bentley GTPs) since the R8C a decade in a half ago.

They wont be. The reason why? Driver changes are faster with the closed cockpits. The open cars were faster being LHD because the incoming driver, could get to the left side faster than the stepping in from the right, while it was faster for the outgoing driver to get out on the right versus left after buckling the new driver in.

[chernaudi]

Doesn't really matter--Toyota and Porsche are LHD and that doesn't slow down their driver change times. When you can only change one tire at a time during the stops, LHD and RHD seems to be immaterial.

And the battery pack will be heavier than the flywheel, probably heavy enough to the point where it won't make any difference what side of the tub it's located on. One reason why the Porsche and Toyota are LHD is because it makes no difference what side the supercap box or battery pack is located, and at least it's a constant, static measurement.

Hence, I won't be surprised if Audi go back to LHD unless the battery pack is really light, as in marginally heavier than the flywheel, which it probably will be quite a bit heavier.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Doesn't really matter--Toyota and Porsche are LHD and that doesn't slow down their driver change times. When you can only change one tire at a time during the stops, LHD and RHD seems to be immaterial.

Fractions of a second. It all adds up.... Audi has studied this stuff extensively.

I'm not kidding...

They also prefer to keep RHD for safety in the pit lane.

[chernaudi]

Those fractions of a second are immaterial when you consider that the ACO don't use IMSA's pit rules. First the fuel goes in, and tire changes happen second. The even bigger deal is that since only one wheel gun can be used at a time, tire changes don't take 8-10 seconds like they used to with two tire changers. It now takes more like 18-20 seconds or so.

We also have to remember the reasons why Porsche and Toyota prefer the LHD position--they can see RH corner apexes slightly clearer and the battery pack and super-cap box weight almost as much as the average driver does. Unless Audi Sport can pull some major magic with LG/Samsung, they're not going to have a battery pack that will be as light as the flywheel, or even twice that weight (and I've heard some figures that the flywheel generator is now down to 40-45 lbs, though I sort of doubt that and think that the weight is at least 10 lbs heavier than those figures).

Once the weight reaches a certain point, and with ACO pit stop rules taking away basically all advantage of having a RHD GTP coupe, it becomes designer preference really. Which is why the R8, R10 and R15 were LHD due to designer preference, in that case, a reminder that Audi were the first European manufacturer to standardize on LHD in continental Europe.

Audi originally designed the R18 with the thought in mind that the ACO might abandon the one tire changer at the time rule, but they stuck with it even after the ACO decided not to change it. Furthermore, Audi's drivers--even Allan McNish--weighed a ton more than the flywheel generator. I also don't see much in the way of safety advantages with RHD--Audi's open LMP cars being LHD wouldn't make much sense at about 90% of tracks that they visited.

[Hawker]

Originally Posted by CTD

GM deliberately tried to silence the case for a decade:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera...switch_scandal
The general opinion here in Denmark seems to be that this is a media circus which not many people care about. The media use it as a break in the immigration/fugitive story, as this has gotten "old".
I'm still sticking to that this story will fade away once the recall has been made.

GM's ignition switch wasn't designed to bypass regulation. They didn't make an ignition switch to behave one way during Govt testing and another way during everyday use. They made a design change at the request of their customers (who reported the ignition was too difficult to rotate - the effort required was too high to turn the key).

VW committed fraud on a worldwide scale. The two do not even compare.

Laws in US (and most of Europe) focus on intent - GM didn't intend to break the law, although they did cover up once they knew the ignition switch had problems.

VW intended to break the law - and there is ample evidence already that it tried to cover up as well. Think of it in this way: it's the same principle that we give people less severe jail terms for manslaughter vs. murder. Intent is important.

Although it is still very early, it seems just more and more information is coming to light almost every day that VW not only knew about, but actually planned, this route . . . even though they were warned that this emission 'defeat device' software was illegal . . . eight years ago. http://blog.caranddriver.com/report-...ating-in-2007/ (there are more links there)

So . . .VW saved $355 per vehicle . . . for about eight years. Someone senior in VW vetoed the Adblue system for the diesel and the two engineers championing it were transferred.

What's 11 million cars x $355/car for the Adblue? So that is about $4 billion saved worldwide. In the U.S., they face fines up $18 billion (which may be more than they received for the original sales of these cars).

And that is just in fines - not considering lawsuits by states (some states gave consumers tax rebates for buying their cars - which will have to be repaid by VW) as well as consumers and even their dealers - which are piling up - and that does not include the cost to rectify (recall) millions of their cars and get them to meet the regs - the ones that they chose not to conform to in the first place . . . to save $355/car.

A big heap of 'not good' for VW Group. And now that other marques are being exposed, it would probably be prudent to not forget that the Audi luxury brand not only pushed “clean” TDI diesels, they pushed them under the guise of “Truth In Engineering.” How much was spent on that advert campaign? As both VW and Audi were banking on most of their sales increases coming from the U.S. in coming years . . . this is not going to just blow-over, or fade away . . . IMO.

[TF110]

2.1 million diesel Audis have the software worldwide. I think Audi would be wise to disassociate their WEC race program from diesel very quickly. They use the Le Mans connection to their road vehicles. This latest fact wont be pleasing. I expect them to switch to petrol in 2017.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

2.1 million diesel Audis have the software worldwide. I think Audi would be wise to disassociate their WEC race program from diesel very quickly. They use the Le Mans connection to their road vehicles. This latest fact wont be pleasing. I expect them to switch to petrol in 2017.

Time will tell, but diesel technology as such is not the issue. Like the other sister companies of the VW group, Audi unfortunately suffer from using the incriminated EA189 engine platform on their entry-level diesel cars. A very unfortunate effect of intra-group optimization I guess. The 3.0L V6 TDI engine is - unless I am mistaken - not affected by this scandal. There is still room to promote and market high-end high-performance diesel engines. It will surely be tough, but not impossible, and more than before Audi will need some platform to promote the technology and distance themselves from what is basically a VW-inflicted disaster.

Coming to the WEC, Audi would actually be well advised to stick to diesel - from a performance perspective at least - as the EoT inherently helps them to remain competitive compared to the best-in-class petrol player. That is an advantage that should not be neglected. Audi would win nothing from being the "next-in-class" in the petrol category, as Toyota's difficult season demonstrates. Audi actually have more to gain from being in a position to win races using a diesel engine than playing second or third best in the petrol category. And as chernaudi has already stressed, Audi have as a matter of fact put very little emphasis on the "TDI" branding in recent years, which in itself demonstrates that Audi are not using their current WEC program solely to promote diesel technology.

I don't mind seeing Audi return with a petrol engine, but I don't see that happening soon.

Interestingly, the current restructuring process that the VW group is now forced to go through, with Audi expected to become an independent division/holding, together with the Lamborghini and Ducati brands, may be a positive thing for Audi. Increased autonomy may put Audi in a better position to determine their future motorsport programs with less influence from the sister brands.

[chernaudi]

I think that the restructuring was already planned for a while. The 4 banger diesel issue just provided Volkswagen Group the "excuse" to stop putting it off, and I'm betting that Wintercorn was slowing down the restructuring operations.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I think that the restructuring was already planned for a while. The 4 banger diesel issue just provided Volkswagen Group the "excuse" to stop putting it off, and I'm betting that Wintercorn was slowing down the restructuring operations.

Winterkorn actually very much seemed to be the driving force behind this restructuring plan as this Handelsblatt report of past June suggests.

[TF110]

Diesel is going to be frowned upon now. Its just the right time for Audi to move away from it in racing. EOT can be changed, thats not going to determine their future fuel technology. I see the media swaying public opinion, and thanks to that they will take advantage of a switch to petrol. Thats my prediction.

[500]

Originally Posted by Hawker

GM's ignition switch wasn't designed to bypass regulation. They didn't make an ignition switch to behave one way during Govt testing and another way during everyday use. They made a design change at the request of their customers (who reported the ignition was too difficult to rotate - the effort required was too high to turn the key).

VW committed fraud on a worldwide scale. The two do not even compare.

Laws in US (and most of Europe) focus on intent - GM didn't intend to break the law, although they did cover up once they knew the ignition switch had problems.

VW intended to break the law - and there is ample evidence already that it tried to cover up as well. Think of it in this way: it's the same principle that we give people less severe jail terms for manslaughter vs. murder. Intent is important.

The issue with GM vis-�*-vis intent is that they deliberately CHOSE to cover up the issue once they became aware of it (and that it had caused fatalities). What VW did is very disappointing and demoralizing. Same can be said for the decisions made by GM.

[chernaudi]

The only reason I can see Audi jumping ship back to gasoline power is if the weight of the hybrid systems in the future forces their hand, namely if anything over a 2 liter 4 banger turbo is weight prohibitive.