[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Frankly, I doubt Sebring becomes a WEC only round. The WEC if it wishes to continue to race in North America, will have to find their own round.

I agree with this. I think Sebring will be a WEC event in 2012 only afterwards the WEC will go to Austin or somewhere else. I have no idea why though as the WEC's only tie to the US market is via the ALMS and Sebring.

Originally Posted by Acid09

Is it the ACO's fault that the American economy is in the crapper? No. Is it the ACO's fault that the ALMS isn't able to negotiate a proper TV deal? No.

I wonder how that WEC tv deal in the US is going? Oh yeah, there isn't one and will never be one.

Originally Posted by The Badger

Fine , then let them come up with their own series , if they can

I agree , its not nice to get screwed , but the ACO are looking after #1 first , and that is their 24 hour race , and you cant blame them for that . They did get screwed by the Fia in 1992 , and havent forgotten that , 29 entries with 19 finishers .

The WEC reduces the importance of Le Mans, particularly to the manufacturers. It is now just another round to them and their accountants.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

The WEC reduces the importance of Le Mans, particularly to the manufacturers. It is now just another round to them and their accountants.

I don't agree with this statement, Le Mans will continue to be the crown jewel. You can do as Audi did this year, and only win LM, and it will be considered a success. Conversely, Peugeot swept the balance of the schedule, but didn't win LM. A few years from now, that ILMC championship will be all but meaningless, but that LM will will stand up forever. (See Mercedes FIA GT championships, vs. failure at LM)

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

The WEC reduces the importance of Le Mans, particularly to the manufacturers. It is now just another round to them and their accountants.

You cannot be serious with that comment !?!?!?

The only reason the WEC grid is looking so healthy is that teams enter to get a guaranteed position for the race , as well as being an international championship .

The jewel of the crown is still , and always will be Le Mans . A championship means nothing to manufacturers , compared to the bragging rights of that big elusive win .

[Articus]

To reflect on some of the recent post. As much as I want to enjoy the WEC for the near future its still quite scary to imagine what happens next. John Dagy's had a great little online chat session yesterday and he said Peugeot was scaling back its sportscar programme next year. (Now there developing a S2000 car too). I read from Sam Collins site that (rumour) R18 is the last of the line from Audi? Who knows, just a rumour. As much as i dont want to think about it. WEC has made the game alot more expensive. The Arrival of Toyota is certainly going to make cost rise as they will probably spend as much as any other manufacturer.

I can almost taste it. It feels as though the R18 and the 908 are the last we will see from Audi and Peugeot. They may run the cars for the next 4-5 years but then what? Audi has built so an absurd number of cars(R10,R15,R15+,R15++,R18,R18(2012?) within a short time span relatively speaking. It's really suspicious.

Dagy's chatted that Peugeot (parent company) cut 10% of its workforce.
And then there the Euro devaluing.

I dont really know what to make of this. I wish that Motorsports teams had endless budgets.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Articus

I can almost taste it. It feels as though the R18 and the 908 are the last we will see from Audi and Peugeot. They may run the cars for the next 4-5 years but then what?

The current LMP1 cars only have 2 years of life left (2012 and 2013) because a new rule book will be introduced in 2014.

Originally Posted by Articus

Dagy's chatted that Peugeot (parent company) cut 10% of its workforce.
And then there the Euro devaluing.

The financial crisis in Europe is particularly bad for Peugeot. For Audi the weak euro may even be positive because they export a lot (China and US).

[Félix]

From my POV, WEC will have less than 10 P1s this year. Still split in 2 sub-classes. I can only think of 5 certain full-season entries. Looks very 1992 to me.

The difference is that the lower classes are "healthy" this time. Lots of cars... very few pro teams who are there to win (instead of pleasing rich amateurs). They could race in historics, but they must prefer the "competition" found in modern racing and the glory that comes with it. In the end, it's about ego more than about sport. Keep adding sub-classes/sub-championships and more egos will be pleased.

[Articus]

I think the issue is its not actually a Vette right? Are they not Riley and Dallara chassis covered with Vette bodywork? Quick question-what parts under the body work were developed by GM?

[JAG]

Asian developments.

http://www.lemans.org/en/news/The_AC...medium=twitter

[The Badger]

Yaknow , manufacturers build cars , just for Le Mans . The Toyota TS-020 only ever did one race outside of Le Mans , and that was to showcase their chassis to a home crowd ..... Bentley , did 4 races with their car over 3 years , 3 Le mans and 1 Sebring .

Le Mans , there is no bigger event that this , and even to say its the biggest race in the world , bigger than Indy or Monaco , and thats not me who says that , its the teams , drivers and owners , even world champions say it once they have been there .

So , your statement above ..... I dont quite understand how you can come out with something like this .

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Yaknow , manufacturers build cars , just for Le Mans . The Toyota TS-020 only ever did one race outside of Le Mans , and that was to showcase their chassis to a home crowd ..... Bentley , did 4 races with their car over 3 years , 3 Le mans and 1 Sebring .

Le Mans , there is no bigger event that this , and even to say its the biggest race in the world , bigger than Indy or Monaco , and thats not me who says that , its the teams , drivers and owners , even world champions say it once they have been there .

So , your statement above ..... I dont quite understand how you can come out with something like this .

Biggest event based upon what? Attendance? Although Indy is struggling now, I think they would have a bone to pick with that. TV viewership? F1 certainly rules in this area. In my part of the world no one has heard of Le Mans. To quote the Bandit, “When you tell somebody something, it depends on what part of the country you're standing in as to just how dumb you are”.

My point was leading to this. Championships that are are organized around a single "crown jewel" event don't work. I'm looking at Indy when I make that comment. Not only do we have a struggling open wheel series the event itself is now a shadow of its former self.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Biggest event based upon what? Attendance? .

Most important race to win . Biggest bragging rights , worldover . Possibily it isnt viewed like this in the States , as ye have few manufacturers and very little idea of heritage .

Get this ..... Le Mans is the biggest race in the world ..... get over it !!!

Ask the manufacturers dude .....

[Acid09]

I agree, for manufacturers it's definitely the most important race as there's little connection to car manufacturers at Indy... they have been spec chassis for many years anyways.

[TF110]

300,000 people go to LeMans I heard, perhaps more. It's shown and known by everyone. It's THE biggest race of the year. If you think otherwise something is wrong. WEC hasn't begun, yet people go and write it off. Maybe these fortune tellers can predict who'll win LM as well?

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by TF110

Maybe these fortune tellers can predict who'll win LM as well?

Easy. Peugeot or Audi. Again.

300,000? Is that people combined over the week, or just for the Saturday and Sunday? Because the British Grand Prix got 315,000 combined for Friday, Saturday and Sunday last year.

I'm ready to give WEC a chance. My only issue with the ACO is the crap equality between the diesel and petrol cars over the last however many years it has been.

Don't get me wrong, Le Mans has been an epic race for the last few years with the huge battles between Audi and Peugeot, but just for once I'd like to see a completely wide open race between multiple teams, petrol and diesel. Sure the manufacturers may still win because they have the money and experience - but it'd be nice for other teams like Rebellion and Pescarolo and others to at least have a mathematical chance of victory.

In the ILMC last year, unless something completely freakish happens, you might as well have given the top three trophies out to Audi and Peugeot before the race had even begun. The only times anyone else has had a chance are the rare times neither team has bothered to turn up.

The WEC needs to create a big scene in 2012 to show that it has arrived and to make people aware of its existence. Constant Peugeot and Audi battles are all well and good for the loyal sportscar fans, but I doubt it'd do much to attract new audiences.

I hear there's been some attempt to level the playing field for 2012, but not having a particular engineering mind, I'm not sure if it'll do much. I've heard from some in the know that it won't do too much, which is a shame.

I guess in a way the FIA/ACO have their hands tied on equality, because if they do anything too drastic both Audi and Peugeot will get ****y-pants over the rules and quit like any manufacturer does when the rules don't suit them completely.

See? Manufacturers suck.

[JAG]

Many of the arguments against the WEC would be valid in 2008, four years later the major manufatuers have long since left the regional series, the worry today is those left departing for GA or the DTM. The concern about the WEC being of interest only to manufactuers appears rooted in the fact few NA teams/drivers compete internationally, yet a NA based ALMS/Indycar season is just as arduous as a World Championship.

but just for once I'd like to see a completely wide open race between multiple teams, petrol and diesel.

With factory petrol and diesel teams there's little excuse to favour one fuel type, but wide open racing doesn't tend to happen anywhere when the stakes are high.

you might as well have given the top three trophies out to Audi and Peugeot before the race had even begun. The only times anyone else has had a chance are the rare times neither team has bothered to turn up.

You could say the same about most series in recent memory, whether it's Sauber Mercedes in the WSC, NPT Nissan in IMSA GTP or Audi's dominance with the R8, Audi vs Peugeot is one more potential winner than many races.

The WEC needs to create a big scene in 2012 to show that it has arrived and to make people aware of its existence.

Being aligned to Le Mans gives it instant profile (to a degree) but more importantly a sound base so you can plan longer term.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Don't get me wrong, Le Mans has been an epic race for the last few years with the huge battles between Audi and Peugeot, but just for once I'd like to see a completely wide open race between multiple teams, petrol and diesel. Sure the manufacturers may still win because they have the money and experience - but it'd be nice for other teams like Rebellion and Pescarolo and others to at least have a mathematical chance of victory.

Sorry but the day Rebellion & Pescarolo can keep up with Audi & Peugeot is the day the equality has done horribly wrong.

This has nothing to do with diesel or petrol but budgets. Privateers will never have the same resources as the big works entries and they only manage to snatch wins from them if things go horribly wrong.

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Sorry but the day Rebellion & Pescarolo can keep up with Audi & Peugeot is the day the equality has done horribly wrong.

This has nothing to do with diesel or petrol but budgets. Privateers will never have the same resources as the big works entries and they only manage to snatch wins from them if things go horribly wrong.

I disagree hugely.

I want to see an exciting show. I want to see a close race between multiple teams, not just the same old Peugeot-Audi show.

I'll freely admit that even if it was a level playing field, manufacturers may still continue to win because they have much more money and resources. But I'd just like to see multiple teams with at least a shot of victory. In recent years, you might as well as only had six cars in LMP1 with the three Peugeots and three Audis, because that's always who is going to win. I want to see a surprise, I want to see different results, not just the same Peugeot-Audi lamefest.

Look at what Henri Pescarolo was saying not too long ago - he found it hard to attract sponsors last year because they fail to understand exactly how his team can be that much slower than the diesel cars.

Privateers should still have a chance of winning - look at other forms of racing, like say, touring cars - there's manufacturers present but privateers still have the chance to win from time to time.

I saw a post in the ILMC 2012 WEC Entries thread about the announcement of JRM entering LMP1, saying how the "petrol class" should be so exciting now. I find that such a sad indictment of where sportscar racing is right now that we have to have this rubbish about an "unofficial petrol class" to find excitement in LMP1 because it's just a boring diesel lock out.

I know my views won't be popular on this. Don't get me wrong, I love sportscars. I just wish the ACO would grow some balls and bring back properly exciting racing where you've got more than just the same two old teams capable of winning. I understand that sportscars is about alternative fuels, etc, but motorsport is about producing an exciting show. I can't see how the same old Peugeot-Audi fest is going to help WEC. It is fine for loyal sportscar racing fans, but I cannot see how it is going to attract new fans or sponsors to the series.

Look at ALMS in recent years. You had LMP2 Porsches and Acuras regularly challenging LMP1 Audis for overall victory. That was exciting. Just a shame we won't see that sort of excitement on this side of the Atlantic because the FIA/ACO are too chicken to put on any sort of a good show.

It's just so frustrating for me as a fan. Why can't we get back to the good old days of lots of teams having a mathematical chance of victory at Le Mans? Before it used to be just that, and then it would be the survival of the fittest. Now in recent years it's been a case of if you haven't got a diesel, you haven't got a chance and you might as well not even bother turning up. I can understand why Rebellion looked at going to the ALMS rather than WEC - they're fed up of never having half a chance of even getting onto the podium, nevermind the top step.

As I say, I'll give WEC a year. If it's the same Peugeot/Audi borefest for yet another year, I personally am not interested, which hurts me to say that, but it's true. Let's get some proper racing back.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

I disagree hugely.

I want to see an exciting show. I want to see a close race between multiple teams, not just the same old Peugeot-Audi show..................

Given the two latest manufactuers are enterting petrol cars, there's no need to a make the petrol/diesel distinction, any performance difference still in place after this winters adjustments (significant diesel restrictor reduction) should be addressed.

In the ALMS the Porsche and Acura's were competive, yes because the rules suited, but also because they were factory cars, few other P2's got a look in with Penske and co. on the grid. With regards to Pescarolo he's made some valid points in the past, but with the latest petrol factory cars and the customer HPD's and Lola-Toyota's, his current car(s) could be some way down the pack without upgrades, it shows it's not just factory disesls vs privateer petrols, there's a few levels inbetween.

Finally I think it's been forgotten the petrol Audi R8 was practically unbeatable, in some case the car was almost wreaked in the first hour, but it's performance advantage so great it could still win the race.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by TF110

300,000 people go to LeMans I heard, perhaps more. It's shown and known by everyone. It's THE biggest race of the year. If you think otherwise something is wrong. WEC hasn't begun, yet people go and write it off. Maybe these fortune tellers can predict who'll win LM as well?

Le Mans is the biggest sportscar race of the year for sure. I've always heard that the weeks attendance is 250k at Le Mans. Indy seats that many and has capacity for many more, so there is still an argument there. F1 ratings beat the snot out of Le Mans. As I said before, maybe 1% of the population of North America has heard of Le Mans. I suspect the same is true anywhere outside of Europe. I love sportscar racing and Le Mans, but it is not the biggest race in the world... and nothing is wrong.

My point remains the same. Look to Indy, learn from those mistakes and keep LM out of the WEC. Oh and Puegeot will win LM this year in their swan song.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Le Mans is the biggest sportscar race of the year for sure. I've always heard that the weeks attendance is 250k at Le Mans. Indy seats that many and has capacity for many more, so there is still an argument there. F1 ratings beat the snot out of Le Mans. As I said before, maybe 1% of the population of North America has heard of Le Mans. I suspect the same is true anywhere outside of Europe. I love sportscar racing and Le Mans, but it is not the biggest race in the world... and nothing is wrong.

My point remains the same. Look to Indy, learn from those mistakes and keep LM out of the WEC. Oh and Puegeot will win LM this year in their swan song.

I'm sorry. But thats not true.
Have you anything to support that claim!? (that there is only 1% outside Europe knowing what Le Mans is)
If only 1% of the world knew what Le Mans is, then there would be no way that the ACO could sell the TV rights the world over.
We wouldn't see manufactures like Corvette, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda and so on showing an interest in the event.

Claiming that Le Mans is the biggest single motoring event in the world is fair. Yes it's hard to prove, but it's harder to falsify.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by CTD

I'm sorry. But thats not true.
Have you anything to support that claim!? (that there is only 1% outside Europe knowing what Le Mans is)
If only 1% of the world knew what Le Mans is, then there would be no way that the ACO could sell the TV rights the world over.
We wouldn't see manufactures like Corvette, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda and so on showing an interest in the event.

Claiming that Le Mans is the biggest single motoring event in the world is fair. Yes it's hard to prove, but it's harder to falsify.

I'm obviously speaking in broad generalizations. But the largest "single day" attended motoring event in the world is Indy... as crappy as it has become, that is still true. Outside of the World Cup the most viewed sporting event(s) on television is Formula One (pick a race, it doesn't matter). One can argue that it is easier to disprove than prove.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

300,000 people go to LeMans I heard, perhaps more. It's shown and known by everyone. It's THE biggest race of the year. If you think otherwise something is wrong.

Of course I agree that it is the single best and most important sporting event of the year, but I've never personally met anyone else in Finland who actually knows the race other than maybe, just maybe by the name.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by TF110

300,000 people go to LeMans I heard, perhaps more. It's shown and known by everyone. It's THE biggest race of the year. If you think otherwise something is wrong. WEC hasn't begun, yet people go and write it off. Maybe these fortune tellers can predict who'll win LM as well?

A bit under 250 000 spectators; 244 xxx IIRC. But over-inflating numbers and looking at reality from a very specific POV is necessary to believe LM is the race of the year.

In fact it is the local F1 GP for countries who have one that is the event of the year (yeah in numbers too in most cases). It can even be the local international rally event. It would be Monaco in F1 if there was no coherent championship built around it. And in USA roughly a ton of events are more the "motorsport event of the year" than LM just because people have heard about it and have come to spectate it.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Félix

In fact it is the local F1 GP for countries who have one that is the event of the year (yeah in numbers too in most cases). It can even be the local international rally event. It would be Monaco in F1 if there was no coherent championship built around it. And in USA roughly a ton of events are more the "motorsport event of the year" than LM just because people have heard about it and have come to spectate it.

Sorry but that is nonsense, no single F1 race or rally event is more important than Le Mans.

I´m really puzzled we're seriously having this discussion, and in a sports car racing forum of all places.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Sorry but that is nonsense, no single F1 race or rally event is more important than Le Mans.

I´m really puzzled we're seriously having this discussion, and in a sports car racing forum of all places.

I think for someone who is a rally fan first and foremost the Montecarlo Rally is much more important than LM.

And just going by media coverage, every F1-GP blows LM completely out of the water.