LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[ger80]

TUSC should be running LMP1-L really ...

[Ginaro Zukovsky]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

Also there is a big difference between TUSCC and LMP2 prototype classes. TUSCC is a Professional class with professional lineups, LMP2 is a Gentleman drivers class. If a TUSCC team wants to come to Le Mans it has to find a Gentleman driver to the third driver. For example, WTR, AX or CGR would need to fire Angelelli, Bourdais or Dixon to go to Le Mans.

Perhaps the question is why PC teams cannot go to Le Mans.

PC teams would obviously need P2 equipment - if their amateur driver wants to go to Le Mans it's much easier to just rent-a-ride with a European team, e.g. Chris Cumming this year.

Not the best examples for TUSC teams going to Le Mans WTR need a 3rd driver anyway with Taylor driving for Corvette, CGR might not be in Prototype next year.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by ger80

TUSC should be running LMP1-L really ...

No they shouldn't.










L.P.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Chiana

If we are still talking about Mazda at LM alone, which I thought we where, none of that matters when their diesel is not eglible for Le Mans.

Besides you are wrong about 'champions' getting auto entries (which again can be refused by the ACO anyway), between 2012 ALMS and 2015 USCC it was decided only by at-large-whoever-they-pick system, and from 2016 onwards it's top amateur drivers and their affiliated teams.

That's true right now, but we're talking about 2017. It's the whole reason IMSA was involved in the P2 discussions. What I posted is not secret information, I just answered someone's question. If you don't like the answer, that's on you.

Originally Posted by ger80

TUSC should be running LMP1-L really ...

LMP1-L is unfortunately a lame duck. P2 is really the perfect class right now as it gives Ford and Chevy a platform to race small displacement turbocharged engines and might encourage HPD to stick around. Even Ford and GM's P2 engines don't make it to Le Mans, they both will have cars in GTE anyway. We're slowly entering an economic boon over here and I think it is the right time to encourage manufacturer participation again.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

LMP1-L is unfortunately a lame duck. P2 is really the perfect class right now as it gives Ford and Chevy a platform to race small displacement turbocharged engines and might encourage HPD to stick around. Even Ford and GM's P2 engines don't make it to Le Mans, they both will have cars in GTE anyway. We're slowly entering an economic boon over here and I think it is the right time to encourage manufacturer participation again.

The problem is that boom will not lead to the creation of amazing cars until the current people running the show are out.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

As I explained the other day in my opinion the best solution to IMSA would be kicking the ACO prototype class and move to class 1. It is currently supported by 6 big factories in DTM and Super GT. With that regulations Toyota, Nissan or Audi could run a works team in USA and Ford or Chevrolet could run a DTM program. Win Win situation for me.

Costs aside, the problem for going to Class 1 is that the big 3 US manufacturers are not motivated on going to that route.

Originally Posted by ger80

TUSC should be running LMP1-L really ...

I would agree on TUSC going to that route, but the LMP1-L class needs to be reworked in order to become similar to the current LMP2 regulations in terms of costs.

While Ford will be leaving the Prototype class in the near future, the only manufacturer left in that class is Chevrolet as they're freakin' greedy when it comes to overall wins in Daytona, Sebring, etc.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

If we are still talking about Mazda at LM alone, which I thought we where, none of that matters when their diesel is not eglible for Le Mans.

Besides you are wrong about 'champions' getting auto entries (which again can be refused by the ACO anyway), between 2012 ALMS and 2015 USCC it was decided only by at-large-whoever-they-pick system, and from 2016 onwards it's top amateur drivers and their affiliated teams.

OK, we haven't seen 2017 P2 rules published yet, but what we have heard is the free engine choices in IMSA will be allowed in at Le Mans, but bop'eed to P2 pace. There has been no indication that an IMSA diesel engine would be banned while allowing petrol concepts.

[TF110]

If Ford leave DP and its just Chevy, what happens to the class? I dont see it being some unique place for 'leftover' lmp2's. I see (most) the teams saying screw it and jumping on the ACO bandwagon ruleset with spec engines. Two reasons I see are availability of cars and the ability to race in other series. The ACO/FIA arent going to invite many tusc teams to LM going by the past.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Peat

I get it.

It's the boys club not happy that too many people are making a decent living out of a thriving category.

This decision came out of nowhere, with zero consultant (well, apart from the parties who are in on it) and was likely formalised over a lovely Horse-Steak dinner and a fine bottle of Merlot.

It's such an obvious stitch-up by greedy little men. I hope they all enjoy holidaying on each others yachts at the expense of LMP2.

Good night.

TOUCHE!

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by TF110

If Ford leave DP and its just Chevy, what happens to the class? I dont see it being some unique place for 'leftover' lmp2's. I see (most) the teams saying screw it and jumping on the ACO bandwagon ruleset with spec engines. Two reasons I see are availability of cars and the ability to race in other series. The ACO/FIA arent going to invite many tusc teams to LM going by the past.

The question you have to answer is "what non-Chevy teams?"

TUSC's P class is 4 Chevies (three primarily supported by the series owners, one by GM), 2 factory Mazdas, 1 factory Ford, and 1 slightly supported HPD plus whoever stumbles in for enduros. HPD will probably be done with P2 in the new rules. Mercy willing Mazda will get management that doesn't see the point of burning money to run 6 seconds off the pace eventually. We don't even know if a small block Chevy will be a realistic engine choice for the new P2 chassis assuming they're all built for whatever spec motor.

Ultimately the kick in the pants is there isn't a viable American version of P2 to justify having their own rules, it's just another example of Daytona doing what Daytona thinks is best.

[Deleted]

http://sportscar365.com/industry/u-s...n-lmp2-future/

Prototype Challenge teams, such as the Rolex 24 and Sebring-winning PR1/Mathiasen Motorsports squad, are also keeping a keen eye on the developments, as it will likely have an impact on the future of its class as well.

“I really think that a decision being made on the future of the P category and PC, of what that equipment looks like, will reinvigorate all of the prototype classes,” team owner Bobby Oergel told Sportscar365.

“My opinion is that we should make the P car and PC car identical [in the regulations]. The only difference [between the classes] would be drivers. I get it that it may need to have spec engines and spec dampers. But whatever that is, make it legal for the P class.

“If a guy wants to pony up and run Daytona as a P car and go for it, great. But you have the potential to win overall and that’s where you’ll bring all of the amateurs back.”

Spec engines and spec components for identical cars in separate sub classes only divided by driver ratings. Some of these suggestions are even mode ludicrous than the crap they've been cooking in the ACO and IMSA board meetings as of late.

Originally Posted by joeb

OK, we haven't seen 2017 P2 rules published yet, but what we have heard is the free engine choices in IMSA will be allowed in at Le Mans, but bop'eed to P2 pace. There has been no indication that an IMSA diesel engine would be banned while allowing petrol concepts.

This is from Lord Beaumesnil just couple of days before the Daytona spec-meeting this January:

We already told them there is no future for diesel in P2. Balancing this is just a nightmare. We cannot go in that direction. If you start in a category like that in which we try to control the cost, close competition, everything, someone comes with the diesel with the support of the manufacturer, and it changes too much for everybody. They win the race and everybody will say it's because the diesel has an advantage. The diesel is for P1. In P2, we make the same rule for everyone. Makes life more simple.

http://www.racer.com/aco-sporting-di...=1&limitstart=

Originally Posted by JHamilton

That's true right now, but we're talking about 2017. It's the whole reason IMSA was involved in the P2 discussions. What I posted is not secret information, I just answered someone's question. If you don't like the answer, that's on you.

LMP1-L is unfortunately a lame duck. P2 is really the perfect class right now as it gives Ford and Chevy a platform to race small displacement turbocharged engines and might encourage HPD to stick around. Even Ford and GM's P2 engines don't make it to Le Mans, they both will have cars in GTE anyway. We're slowly entering an economic boon over here and I think it is the right time to encourage manufacturer participation again.

Okay, they might change the auto entry regs again (or not - they clearly want amateur focus for their autos) but you saying that they are giving them to 'champions' is no less accurate than what I said, mere assumption/guessing.

LMP2-of-today might be a fine place with variety and all plus accessibility to run in Le Mans and three other series besides just the American one. But once again it will be isolated like DPs from the rest of the world, apart from Le Mans under BoP nonsense, with these new spec rules. The manufacturer involvement you speak of is also limited. Ford, you know the very very limited involvement they've had in DP, won't necessarily be carried over to 2017 with the arrival of GTE. HPD might be done for. 'Mazda's' ancient chassis with useless engines don't really count for much. Chevy's fake "Corvettes" sitting on top of Rileys or whatever are the only quaranteed cars up there.

[Deleted]

Dunlop PR: "The tyre war continues"
http://motorsport.dunlop.eu/lemans/n...war-continues/

-- Dunlop claims that this class, the only category to feature a tyre war in 2014, is the best platform to prove its technology. “We are delighted that the ‘tyre war’ continues in LMP2. It is one of the best classes to develop tyres in, whether to learn for LMP1 or to cascade technologies into one-brand championships, such as our new LM-GTE and GTC tyre. The ACO police the ‘tyre war’ exceptionally well. This prevents the open competition becoming an arms-race and keeps costs at a sustainable level for tyre manufacturers and teams.” stated James Bailey, Director, Motorsport PR and Communications.

They are delighted that the tyre war continues... for two seasons before it's killed off they forgot to mention! Meanwhile, they are obviously also delighted for being selected as sole spec suppliers for the other [ELMS] categories...

[Maelochs]

Mazda has been talking about going to Le Mans since the diesel program started. I don't think they foresaw the FIA's idiotic policy changes coming (though a brief perusal of history should have prepared us all) but I haven't heard of any change of Mazda's Le Mans plan.

I don't see Mazda spending what it would cost for a full P1 program—but I don't know. I sort of assume Mazda will stick with the diesel for a while and then decide what to do next during the 2016 season. They might even choose to stay with diesel in a clone chassis in TUSC, just to be able to push the SkyActiv brand.

Pretty obviously they aren't going to Le Mans as a "Mazda" with a Multimatic chassis and a VW engine—or maybe they would.

I assume the amount of rebranding in the 2017 P2 paddock will be absolutely ludicrous, with every team claiming both a commercial manufacturer chassis and motor brand despite them all having cloned chassis and identical motors.

Once Aston won its suit against Lola back in what, 2011? Now any team can change a grille and call a chassis by any name, and engines have always been fair game.

Multimatic-VW could be "Mazda," Oreca-VW could be "Alpine-Lamborghini" while Oak-VW could be "Ligier-Audi," or whatever. And on another team the same car might have completely different badging—Why not? After all, Dallara, Rileys, and Coyotes are all "Corvettes."

I guarantee every P2 in TUSC is promoted as a Ford or Chevy or Mazda or whatever ... no mention of the chassis at all, no indication that Chevy or Mazda didn't do half the build.

If you guys think all this is bad ... wait until the manufacturers decide to pull out of P1. Grim times ahead, but far grimmer following those.

[Deleted]

The one and only reason the ACO decided to allow Mazda diesel into LMP2 in 2012 (for 2013) was because their poster boy from Grey's Anatomy was onboard. When it became clear that he wasn't involved anymore, ACO banned it again. After that, I have no idea why "Mazda" has been talking about it since it's very clear that there is zero chance for them to get in. The best they could possibly hope for LM wise is to enter a team called Speedsource (which is it anyway) and buy some rent chassis with rebadged engine. Or, you know, try LMP1. Or get Dempsey back. Or pull the plug of the program.

And yes, I fully expect the chassis-engine titles in 2017 be even faker than they are today. I could see Oak Racing entering two identical Onroak cars and engines, as in one Ligier Infiniti-Nissan and one Venturi Datsun-Nissan, and then their camourflaged third and fourth identical Oaks of G-Drive under the banners of Morgan Renault and Alpine Renault.

[wdave0]

Mazda would need a new chassis by 2017 anyway - the one they have is already a dinosaur so if they are serious about performance (a reasonable question) they have to upgrade, Also, there was a Mazda badged AER turbo 4 which could be resurrected/ spruced up and they'd be good for the LM/IMSA class at Le Mans.

Secondly, it really seems that NASCAR and by extension now IMSA are firmly fixated on 'murrican cars usable nowhere else on earth. They have imposed this on us since 2003 until last year and now we see it coming again in 2017.

[Maelochs]

In this case I think having its own regs is the absolute best thing for TUSC. FIA-ACO Has different goals and is in an entirely different situation. What works for them, with their multiple factory-supported P1 cars, will Not work for TUSC.

TUSC's top class is already basically spec and with the new regs it will be even more so--which means even less interest from the fans. By at least allowing some engine options, TUSC gives the P-class at least a tiny amount of variety--no better than Rolex days, but FIA P2 is going to become far worse that Rolex.

The saddest part is that IndyCar has already learned this lesson. That series is doing everything it can afford to get away from identical cars and motors because it killed all fan interest. Rolex management Should have learned this lesson based on the utter unpopularity of the Rolex series.

FIA already knows this---they can afford to make the lower P class spec because LMP1 and GTE are so varied, but you will never see them trying to force P1 to use cloned chassis or spec ... anything.

Even with its own rules, TUSC could end up being just like FIA P2, except with Chevy V8s instead of some VW power plant, because no other U.S. manufacturer seems interested in the P class.

Teams like Krohn or ESM which really want to race in North America and internationally will probably need two sets of cars anyway, to avoid schedule conflicts, so they can buy four identical chassis and two different types of motors. The two bodies (FIA and IMSA) are certainly always going to have different vehicle-specific BoP rules anyway, so it's not like there wouldn;'t have to be rebuilds and conversions if the same chassis were to race under both sets of regs---not a lot of chassis data would carry over from one to the other.

[wdave0]

Funny that GA management seem to have learned nothing, we now have GA MK2A, in 2017 we get GA MK3 as far as the "lead" class, a few chassis with imitation manufacturer bodywork and any engine you want as long as it makes x hp and torque, while the GT classes will be even better. Will the GTs have to be emasculated as they were in 2004?

As for engines - don't forget the Ford Ecoboost V6 was proposed as a P2 engine from early days, it will be well developed by 2017.

Also - tires will be different between the two sides of the pond, another obstacle to flip flopping cars.

[Japanese Samurai]

BR01 is very influenced by the design of Strakka Dome S103.
http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/pho...entation-br01/
*Small monocoque shape
*Front suspention cover
*Radiator mounting styles

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by wdave0

Secondly, it really seems that NASCAR and by extension now IMSA are firmly fixated on 'murrican cars usable nowhere else on earth. They have imposed this on us since 2003 until last year and now we see it coming again in 2017.

Limiting your category of machinery to just one series in the world has worked brilliantly for these classes hasn't it

2003-2013(/-2017) Grand-Am DP+RGT
2010-2011 GT1 World Championship
2012-20XX WEC LMP1-L/Privateer

Originally Posted by Maelochs

but you will never see them trying to force P1 to use cloned chassis or spec ... anything.

You sure about that, if F1 has gone towards spec direction ever so more there is no quarantee that the same cannot happen to LMP1, especially now that FIA is so heavily involved again. They are making cost cutting measures already with the limited testing restrictions and such, and with someone like Peugeot recently saying that things would need to be cheaper in order to lure them back in FIA-ACO could be persuaded into spec-ifing some of the aspects of LMP1 as well.

I can see the tires as prime suspect here, not really to make it cheaper for anyone (seeing as everyones on Mics by choice anyway) but to have exclusive supplier $$$ money directed at ACO bank account just like in the other categories now. Which would suck ass.

[Speed-King]

First thing I thought was Tatuus CN, actually... The nose profile also looks a lot like what you'd find on the latest gen of Formula 3 cars.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Okay, they might change the auto entry regs again (or not - they clearly want amateur focus for their autos) but you saying that they are giving them to 'champions' is no less accurate than what I said, mere assumption/guessing.

LMP2-of-today might be a fine place with variety and all plus accessibility to run in Le Mans and three other series besides just the American one. But once again it will be isolated like DPs from the rest of the world, apart from Le Mans under BoP nonsense, with these new spec rules. The manufacturer involvement you speak of is also limited. Ford, you know the very very limited involvement they've had in DP, won't necessarily be carried over to 2017 with the arrival of GTE. HPD might be done for. 'Mazda's' ancient chassis with useless engines don't really count for much. Chevy's fake "Corvettes" sitting on top of Rileys or whatever are the only quaranteed cars up there.

Nothing of what I said is based on conjecture.

Why do you keep bringing up what is on track right now? What does that have to do with 2017?

I realize you get a hard on for seeing TUSC fail, however that seems to be clouding your vision on this issue.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Nothing of what I said is based on conjecture.

Right.

TUSC is expected to be open to chassis and engine manufacturers

If you win the championship you get an auto entry to Le Mans where they will BOP the TUSC champ with the rest of the LMP2 field

It doesn't matter, they [diesel Mazda at Le Mans] would be BoP'd.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Right.

Jesus Christ. I'll restate - none of the information I posted, whether finalized or not, is based on conjecture. Meaning, I'm not pulling this out of my ass, making it up or otherwise. You could look it up instead of using that time to give me a hard time.

I was trying to participate in the discussion, not start an argument, which you seem hell bent on doing. I'll just step back again and leave you to the cesspool of whinging and misinformation that this forum has become.

[TF110]

This whole thing was from me questioning what Mazda was saying by talking about Le Mans. From most of what we have heard, lmp2 will not be diesel and the aco will not allow it at Le Mans. That makes it seem like Mazda either know something we don't, theyre abandoning diesel, or the conversation is misleading.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by TF110

This whole thing was from me questioning what Mazda was saying by talking about Le Mans. From most of what we have heard, lmp2 will not be diesel and the aco will not allow it at Le Mans. That makes it seem like Mazda either know something we don't, theyre abandoning diesel, or the conversation is misleading.

I think the other side of this is that the aco said cars from IMSA with a variety of engines will be allowed for Le Mans. And IMSA may very well allow Mazda to continue with their diesel, so combine those two things and that is why it is possible to see diesel in lmp2 at le mans