Dome LMP Discussion

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Silverstone, due to half of the diesels knocking themselves out through traffic and the fact that the race only lasted 6 hours.

Which goes to show that the engine is competitive over WEC distances, and if I recall correctly, that it performed better than other LMP1 petrol engines over that distance?

More philosophically, it is interesting how the Judd LMP2 motor was solidly competitive there, but when the class transmogrifies into LMP1 there are a lot of questions. That it's down on power on a Peugeot doesn't surprise, but the sudden reaction of it being so inferior to the other (Toyota, HPD) packages surprises. Is this a result of the ruleset or a fundamental misstep on the part of Engine Developments?

Interesting too that Dome had sought to run something other than the Judd in this years' LM campaign.

[DeathOrGlory]

Bring back the V10! Stupid ACO rule on engine sizes and cylinder counts.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by DeathOrGlory

Bring back the V10! Stupid ACO rule on engine sizes and cylinder counts.

I'm inclinedto agree with you......small capacity should only be associated with turbocharged engines, as per the road car market.........many manufacturers are now forging ahead with "down-speeding" whereby you use your existing big capacity engine and reduce the operating rpm range in order to reduce the friction and therefore achieve significant fuel economy savings, circa 15-20%......the 5.5 V10 was a great engine with a good balance of performance, weight and fuel economy........if the ACO want to be road relevant they will not achieve this with engines that rev to over 10,000 rpm that are supposedly relevant to the road car market.........but they do sound great I must admit! which realistically is probably the overriding factor :-/

[Speedblood]

Originally Posted by knighty

I'm inclinedto agree with you......small capacity should only be associated with turbocharged engines, as per the road car market.........many manufacturers are now forging ahead with "down-speeding" whereby you use your existing big capacity engine and reduce the operating rpm range in order to reduce the friction and therefore achieve significant fuel economy savings, circa 15-20%......the 5.5 V10 was a great engine with a good balance of performance, weight and fuel economy........if the ACO want to be road relevant they will not achieve this with engines that rev to over 10,000 rpm that are supposedly relevant to the road car market.........but they do sound great I must admit! which realistically is probably the overriding factor :-/

Quite, this road relevenace marketing thing to me is all a load of...(insert explicative)
Slightly off topic but take F1 with the new 1.6 litre rules, there is nothing road relevant about a massively turbocharged 15,000RPM engine. If anything a 6.0 Litre V12 from the old Lola Aston Martin is, as it's derived from....a road car engine!

I may be wrong here and please correct me if I am but wasn't it quoted that the restricted Judd 5.0 V10 from Pescarolo last year more fuel efficient than the 3.4 V8's from factory(ish) toyota engines in the rebellions?
If so, now imagine what a factory developed 5.0 litre V10 with the same level of restrictions could achieve? Wishful thinking perhaps but surely not an unrealistic thought?

No disrespect to the Judd of course but the design is almost (or is) 20 years old. Not that it takes away from the lovely sound it made

Right anyway back to topic, I agree with what you say Knighty about the comments from Nic and Seabass about the Judd. Judd have pretty much or mainly have been a customer supplier. It's a bit like asking Lola to produce a customer LMP1 that can take on Audi. I'm sure they could do it, but unless a lot of funding falls behind the project, there only gonna recover the costs via selling cars, and let's be honest after all the money spent making it so fast, it ain't gonna be cheap.

I do stand to be corrected on any of the above though!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Speedblood

Quite, this road relevenace marketing thing to me is all a load of...(insert explicative)
Slightly off topic but take F1 with the new 1.6 litre rules, there is nothing road relevant about a massively turbocharged 15,000RPM engine. If anything a 6.0 Litre V12 from the old Lola Aston Martin is, as it's derived from....a road car engine!

The future F1 engine rules contains interesting features that are relevant for road cars: gasoline direct injection with very high pressure (up to 500 bar) and electric generator connected to exhaust turbine.

Originally Posted by Speedblood

No disrespect to the Judd of course but the design is almost (or is) 20 years old. Not that it takes away from the lovely sound it made

According to http://www.engdev.com/?page_id=61 the Judd DB engine was "a clean sheet design" when it was introduced in 2008.

[knighty]

speedblood - everyones entitled to an opinion ;-).......but facts are facts, road relevance attracts more manufacturers.

yup, it would not surprise me in the slightest if henris 5.0 V10 judd was alot more fuel efficient than a 3.4 screamer, even if they are not at similar power levels due to grandfathering.......the lower rpm's of the V10 crankshaft will reduce friction by a huge amount, as friction increases with the square of roattional speed, therefore friction increase is not linear, alot of fuel to be saved there.

yup, if this was a complaint about a customer Lola chassis for example, you would expect the team to pay lola more money and develop some new go-faster widgets, just like Rebellion did for LeMans 2011........Judd really are no different, you get what you pay for.

Yes, the V8 3.4 Judd was a clean sheet design in 2008, using alot of modern F1 engine design principles like finger follower valve train and lightweight cylinder heads, essentially not a bad piece of kit, just in need of a slight performance upgrade......when Judd designed the 90 degree AIM V10 5.5 for Creation, they actually used modified sand cores derived from the 90 degree V8 LMP2 sand casting tooling.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Speedblood

Right anyway back to topic, I agree with what you say Knighty about the comments from Nic and Seabass about the Judd. Judd have pretty much or mainly have been a customer supplier. It's a bit like asking Lola to produce a customer LMP1 that can take on Audi. I'm sure they could do it, but unless a lot of funding falls behind the project, there only gonna recover the costs via selling cars, and let's be honest after all the money spent making it so fast, it ain't gonna be cheap.

I do stand to be corrected on any of the above though!

Problem has never been Judd's abilities compared to Audi/Toyota, but rather compared to HPD and Nissan, who also sell privateer engines, and seems to have much better performance.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by CTD

Problem has never been Judd's abilities compared to Audi/Toyota, but rather compared to HPD and Nissan, who also sell privateer engines, and seems to have much better performance.

an interesting perspective, but there is no way on gods earth that Toyota and Honda will actually be primarily running a profitable business by supplying those LMP1 engines.........I think its unfair to compare Judd with the might of HPD and Toyota, lets get things into a realistic perspective!......regarding comparisons to Nissan, they dont compete in LMP1

[CTD]

Originally Posted by knighty

an interesting perspective, but there is no way on gods earth that Toyota and Honda will actually be primarily running a profitable business by supplying those LMP1 engines.........I think its unfair to compare Judd with the might of HPD and Toyota, lets get things into a realistic perspective!......regarding comparisons to Nissan, they dont compete in LMP1

My bad with Nissan .

But yes, the HPD engine is developed with Honda/Acura budget support, and the Toyota engine too, but none the less, it is those competitors Judd have in the privateer market, if it's fair or not, it's those engines they have to beat to sell their own.

But one can question the sad state of Lmp1, as there is good chassis out there which isn't Honda(Acura)/Toyota payed, but only Judd as engine provider.

[Speedblood]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The future F1 engine rules contains interesting features that are relevant for road cars: gasoline direct injection with very high pressure (up to 500 bar) and electric generator connected to exhaust turbine.
According to http://www.engdev.com/?page_id=61 the Judd DB engine was "a clean sheet design" when it was introduced in 2008.

Should of clarified, I meant the GV5.5

[knighty]

Just thinking out loud, say Henri and Dome approached HPD and did an engine deal, I reckon Dome would move heaven and earth to get a Honda based engine into the Dome, I mean the whole project has a twang of sour grapes about it because Toyota went their own way, therefore Dome have a point to prove, and no better way to do it with Toyotas biggest neighbour - Honda.......I think that could happen, certainly now is the time to do it because the LeMans test in early June, so about 6 weeks away.

[Bentley03]

Surely not enough time (or budget?) for such a radical change. I sense, with the drivers' comments, they are instead trying to put the Judds under pressure to apply any developments they may have in the pipeline.

[MitchZ06]

There's no Nissan P1 engine....maybe Dome should chase a Nissan engine?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by knighty

Just thinking out loud, say Henri and Dome approached HPD and did an engine deal, I reckon Dome would move heaven and earth to get a Honda based engine into the Dome, I mean the whole project has a twang of sour grapes about it because Toyota went their own way, therefore Dome have a point to prove, and no better way to do it with Toyotas biggest neighbour - Honda.......I think that could happen, certainly now is the time to do it because the LeMans test in early June, so about 6 weeks away.

Well HPD has sold the engine to other chassis before...

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Surely not enough time (or budget?) for such a radical change. I sense, with the drivers' comments, they are instead trying to put the Judds under pressure to apply any developments they may have in the pipeline.

Hi fella, well my logic being that Pescarolo built the current Dome car at what appears to be break-kneck speed, admittedley I think Dome were already designing parts before the car was shipped, so all parts arrived at once........ but changing an engine would involve:

1) Re-designed 100mm thick engine-bell housing adaptor, which is just 3D CAD, a bit of FEA and then a CNC milling job

2) Re-designed front cover to chassis interface, again just a bit of CAD, FEA and a CNC milling job

3) new Exhausts, sub-contract to an F1 grade exhaust supplier and they manufacture to a 3D CAD file, then simply bolt up

4) ECU to chassis and gearbox interface, just a software job for an electronics boffin

5) I really cant imagine the oil cooler or water radiators will need a major re-work as they are very similar engines

Looking at all the above, and also working on the principle that I lead and manage a mechanical design office and do this sort of thing all the time, I think it could all be done in less than 4 weeks.......then bobs your uncle, go test and race it...... simples!

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by CTD

Well HPD has sold the engine to other chassis before...

And Dome ran a Mugen (Honda?) engine in the hybrid S101.5. It's just the lack of time to complete the necessary changes.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by knighty

Hi fella, well my logic being that Pescarolo built the current Dome car at what appears to be break-kneck speed, admittedley I think Dome were already designing parts before the car was shipped, so all parts arrived at once........ but changing an engine would involve:

1) Re-designed 100mm thick engine-bell housing adaptor, which is just 3D CAD, a bit of FEA and then a CNC milling job

2) Re-designed front cover to chassis interface, again just a bit of CAD, FEA and a CNC milling job

3) new Exhausts, sub-contract to an F1 grade exhaust supplier and they manufacture to a 3D CAD file, then simply bolt up

4) ECU to chassis and gearbox interface, just a software job for an electronics boffin

5) I really cant imagine the oil cooler or water radiators will need a major re-work as they are very similar engines

Looking at all the above, and also working on the principle that I lead and manage a mechanical design office and do this sort of thing all the time, I think it could all be done in less than 4 weeks.......then bobs your uncle, go test and race it...... simples!

As you say, in principle. But actually getting it through could be something else.

The very biggest obstacle i see is the budget for such a engine change.
The second biggest, is if HPD is ready to supply another car with a couple of engines and spares.
And Third, Time. a bit reverse of a saying, but it's a lot easier to do, than deciding that it's what have to be done. (Compared to Life of Brian, where they where very good at deciding what to do, but just not to do it! )

[knighty]

for me the glass is half full.......always the optimistic design engineer!!.......but perhaps in this instance wearing my rose tinted glasses.......peace man!

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by knighty

Hi fella, well my logic being that Pescarolo built the current Dome car at what appears to be break-kneck speed, admittedley I think Dome were already designing parts before the car was shipped, so all parts arrived at once........ but changing an engine would involve:

1) Re-designed 100mm thick engine-bell housing adaptor, which is just 3D CAD, a bit of FEA and then a CNC milling job

2) Re-designed front cover to chassis interface, again just a bit of CAD, FEA and a CNC milling job

3) new Exhausts, sub-contract to an F1 grade exhaust supplier and they manufacture to a 3D CAD file, then simply bolt up

4) ECU to chassis and gearbox interface, just a software job for an electronics boffin

5) I really cant imagine the oil cooler or water radiators will need a major re-work as they are very similar engines

Looking at all the above, and also working on the principle that I lead and manage a mechanical design office and do this sort of thing all the time, I think it could all be done in less than 4 weeks.......then bobs your uncle, go test and race it...... simples!

Sorry, missed this earlier......thank you for such a comprehensive reply!

So, it could be achieved within the time, if the desire (and budget) was there to do so.

[TF110]

Would Honda be open to their engine in a Dome seeing as how they already have HPD chassis'? My question I guess being the Dome Honda may be faster than the Wirth designed cars.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

Would Honda be open to their engine in a Dome seeing as how they already have HPD chassis'? My question I guess being the Dome Honda may be faster than the Wirth designed cars.

If you look up, i posed the same question earlier, plus answered it.

HPD supplied engines for a Lola Coupe, so why not an "old" "unproven" Dome?

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by CTD

If you look up, i posed the same question earlier, plus answered it.

HPD supplied engines for a Lola Coupe, so why not an "old" "unproven" Dome?

That's pretty much entirely dependent on the nature of Wirth's contract with HPD/Honda.
If Wirth are the exclusive provider of HPD chassis/engines and, the contract restricts P1 item sales to an engine/chassis combination, it's their issue (unsure as to whether this is the case).

Should common sense prevail, we'd see the engine sold outright. There's no sense screwing yourself out of engine sales if the customer wouldn't likely have purchased the combined package, regardless.

[Articus]

Dome wants to stuff it to Toyota so what bette way than to get the Honda Power. Its not like the dome will be a customer car but nothing more than a 1 off car so what could HP.D lose? Given Toyot's debacle im not even sure they will be better than dome. Dome was the fastest petrol in the year that it ran at lemans. race was another story..

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Articus

Dome wants to stuff it to Toyota so what bette way than to get the Honda Power. Its not like the dome will be a customer car but nothing more than a 1 off car so what could HP.D lose? Given Toyot's debacle im not even sure they will be better than dome. Dome was the fastest petrol in the year that it ran at lemans. race was another story..

I'd love nothing more than for them to stick a better engine in the Dome but I thought people tended to plump for the Judd due to the cheaper cost? Surely that is the key factor here, plus the fact that they still have to run a Judd in the 03 chassis.

I think that if Henri can't get his dream manufacturer tie-up he at least needs to look at getting a manufacturer engine deal next season.

[TF110]

Dome will be good to best the Rebellion and HPD cars, fighting Toyota and Audi doesn't look to be the case with what we know so far. But that may change.