Hopes, expectations and excitement for 2024

[FIRE]

Hopes, it's pretty simple: slower RBR and faster rivals.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Badly needed, somehow - F1 cars are grossly large now which is a part of the reason why they're not perceived as being 'beautiful' any more and plays no small part in all of the track limits idiocy that we see
these days.

I'm sorry I dont agree with that at all. So the fact that the cars are 2000mm wide is a contributing factor to the track limits violations? So when the cars were 2200mm wide in the 80s and the tracks were lined with grass, gravel or a wall, yet somehow no track limit violations?

Its all down to driver behaviour, nothing to do with the size of the cars. You could make the cars 1000mm wide and they would still be doing the same track limit violations.

[Aysedasi]

OK, it's a fair point, maybe it's just my perception that the arrival of grossly large looking cars seem to have coincided with more lack of discipline from drivers.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

OK, it's a fair point, maybe it's just my perception that the arrival of grossly large looking cars seem to have coincided with more lack of discipline from drivers.

Why would you behave if race officials 9 out of 10 don't care?

[P38 in workshop]

It isn't just the width of the cars.There is a well known image online that shows a chronological sequence of Ferraris and the trend is all too obvious.

[Tourer]

Thought I'd add a little bit of fun to the thread by attaching a meme I tripped over yesterday, based on "if all F1 drivers were at school together" and there was a fight - personally I think it's bloody funny but also pretty on-point re driver personalities.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Alan52

1-It is burning fossil fuels to create energy and CO2 that is the issue.The amount of CO2 and Methane gas is unsustainable for the planet.
2-Your supposition that changing climate will mean renewable energy from sun,wind etc won’t be an option is beyond Trump.
3-Whatever factors might have a role in causing climate change only humans can directly affect many of the factors causing this change.The other option is to shrug and wait for a mass extinction of a lot of human life in a few hundred years.
4-You are right it is all about money.The owners of fossil fuel assets will do anything to make sure they are not left with stranded assets and are sure that their money will inoculate them from the worst effects.
5-The measurement of pollution is a scam because the biggest polluters care only about self interest.Politics whether in democracies or autocracies is a fundamentally corrupt game.To ask people to do something so things will be better in 100 years even though there will be short term pain doesn’t compute in their universe.
PS I know this is off topic but I can’t allow nonsense to go unchallenged.

The amount of CO2 and methane is unsustainable for the planet.
That is a question that has yet to be fully answered.
Whether or not it is responsible for climate catastrophe is not universally agreed on by scientists universally.
If there is an assumption that by putting all our eggs in the wind/solar basket when the rhetoric is that we are going to have huge climate variation within 20-30 years, that sort of thinking is not logical.
Mass extinction is highly unlikely.
Even if the pollution is responsible for massive interruption in climate stability; (which is still not proven beyond doubt), it is unlikely to result in the extinction of mankind. Groups of people will survive.

There are far more pressing matters confronting mankind than climate change.
And until the most heavily polluting nations come to the place where they actually lead the rest of the world in reducing their pollution, the efforts of the rest of the planet are in vain.

A nuclear winter would be a much bigger catastrophe than climate change.

Yes its off-topic Alan, but we all have strong opinions on subjects, and I couldn't let one or two of your comments go unchallenged.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Thought I'd add a little bit of fun to the thread by attaching a meme I tripped over yesterday, based on "if all F1 drivers were at school together" and there was a fight - personally I think it's bloody funny but also pretty on-point re driver personalities.

Not sure Tsunoda joins the fight.
And Bottas looks like the principal.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Rusty Nail

I would like to see the drivers racing. I am not interested in watching most of them conserving tyres and fuel for a considerable part of the races!

My hopes would be to see free choice of tyres from the mandated pool to be used however they like. Different cars and drivers, as we see now, have different tyre consumption properties. Let them design the cars and use the tyres that suit their design the best. Get rid of tyre warmers. These are the best drivers in the world, let them show us how to manage sub optimal grip for a few laps!

I would like to see refuelling brought back. That may take some of the bulk and weight out of the cars. Safety grounds of course but Le Mans, Indycar, Supercars etc have refuelling and minimal problems.

Of course computer simulations are likely to mandate similar strategies for some teams but the vagaries of racing, as always, will mean adjusting strategy on the fly and having greater tyre and fuelling choices would add variety and interest.

Lastly, really cut back the aero and get rid of DRS. Ok the cars will be slower but the racing should be better.

My expectations are that none of this will happen of course!

Edit. Maybe this would be more appropriate on the Future Rule Changes thread. Never the less those would be my hopes etc for 2024 even though it won't happen.

Mods, feel free to move this post if you think it is more appropriate else where.

I'm with you on nearly all of that Rusty.

Drivers racing: yes!

Tyres: yes!

Refuelling: I think not. It forces teams to make their pitstops at a certain point and limits the on-the-fly strategic decisions.

Simulations: Well, the more freedom the teams have, the more likely they are to arrive at different solutions.

Aero: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! I've said it many times that downforce should be cut to near zero, but sadly I've accepted it will never happen so I've given up banging on about it.

[BTCC frog]

I am half hoping that McLaren massively go backwards and have a terrible season. Because if that happens I think that Norris or at least Piastri will sign for Red Bull in 2025. Perez was terrible last year, I am not convinced by Tsunoda and I think Ricciardo has lost his form, so think any of them against Verstappen will be another boring season in 2025. Lando Norris against Max Verstappen would be Nico Rosberg against Lewis Hamilton all over again. Oscar Piastri against Max Verstappen might be although I am less convinced. Alternatively, McLaren having a car equal to the Red Bull so we can have that title battle in different teams, with both of them, would be much better but so much more unlikely.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I am half hoping that McLaren massively go backwards and have a terrible season. Because if that happens I think that Norris or at least Piastri will sign for Red Bull in 2025. Perez was terrible last year, I am not convinced by Tsunoda and I think Ricciardo has lost his form, so think any of them against Verstappen will be another boring season in 2025. Lando Norris against Max Verstappen would be Nico Rosberg against Lewis Hamilton all over again. Oscar Piastri against Max Verstappen might be although I am less convinced. Alternatively, McLaren having a car equal to the Red Bull so we can have that title battle in different teams, with both of them, would be much better but so much more unlikely.

No young driver with hopes of being a World Champion will go to Red Bull while Max is there.It is effectively his team and his preferences direct development.A senior citizen happy with picking up crumbs is the likely scenario until Max retires.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Aero: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! I've said it many times that downforce should be cut to near zero, but sadly I've accepted it will never happen so I've given up banging on about it.

Near zero? Making them 1000hp Formula Fords? I don't there is an appetite for that, 1.5G instead of 5G cornering and +20s/lap is a big step change and "looks" quite slow.

Simulation of Formula One car with no downforce by Willem Toet, Sauber aerodynamicist:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/formu...s-willem-toet/


The no downforce, low drag car was much faster on the main straight, but much slower everywhere else including all the shorter straights.

Even Formula Two and Indycars which are about half the downforce, 3G cornering instead of 5G cornering and +10s/lap already look kind of slow compared to Formula One. Isn't part of the USP of Formula One, that they are incredibly fast cars around a racing (road) circuit?

There were numerous complaints in 2014 that the low downforce cars at that time were not stimulating enough for the drivers. The drivers missed the "wow factor" of the high downforce lap record cars from 2003 and 2004, hence why measures were taken to make the cars as quick as back then if not quicker.

[Guthrie]

Most of the F1 fans are hoping for some competition for Red Bull but at the same time, they know that this is not gonna happen at least in this season. In terms of expectations, I am expecting a great battle between Ferrari, McLaren, and Mercedes for the second spot in the constructors' championship.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Simulation of Formula One car with no downforce by Willem Toet, Sauber aerodynamicist:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/formu...s-willem-toet/

Nice post! I wonder if some of the desire for low/no-downforce cars is an attempt to recreate high slip angle types of racing in corners which might be visually pleasing (if not quite quick). I know one rational is to increase the size of braking zones in the hopes this will result in something more interesting.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Alan52

No young driver with hopes of being a World Champion will go to Red Bull while Max is there.It is effectively his team and his preferences direct development.A senior citizen happy with picking up crumbs is the likely scenario until Max retires.

Exactly. With the way that RBR is built around Max, Norris would be a complete idiot to go there. Better off to stay the likely leading challenger with McLaren.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I know one rational is to increase the size of braking zones in the hopes this will result in something more interesting.

Richard

That could be quite easily achieved by reverting to more historical type brakes, not the exotic stuff that they currently use.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The amount of CO2 and methane is unsustainable for the planet.
That is a question that has yet to be fully answered.
Whether or not it is responsible for climate catastrophe is not universally agreed on by scientists universally.
If there is an assumption that by putting all our eggs in the wind/solar basket when the rhetoric is that we are going to have huge climate variation within 20-30 years, that sort of thinking is not logical.
Mass extinction is highly unlikely.
Even if the pollution is responsible for massive interruption in climate stability; (which is still not proven beyond doubt), it is unlikely to result in the extinction of mankind. Groups of people will survive.

There are far more pressing matters confronting mankind than climate change.
And until the most heavily polluting nations come to the place where they actually lead the rest of the world in reducing their pollution, the efforts of the rest of the planet are in vain.

A nuclear winter would be a much bigger catastrophe than climate change.

Yes its off-topic Alan, but we all have strong opinions on subjects, and I couldn't let one or two of your comments go unchallenged.

Twenty years ago there was doubt, ten years ago there was debate, the doubt has gone, the debate is over, it's no longer in the future it's happening now. It's no longer a matter of opinion but one of fact and while you are entitled to your own opinion you are not entitled to your own facts. Fortunately. As to pointing out that a nuclear winter would be worse than climate change what's that got to do with it? Personally I don't fancy either.


This is hopelessly off topic and part of me regrets feeding the troll and adding to the noise but some things have to be said. Maybe all the climate change posts in this thread could just be deleted if a mod has a moment so we can get back to discussing F1.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

This is hopelessly off topic and part of me regrets feeding the troll and adding to the noise but some things have to be said. Maybe all the climate change posts in this thread could just be deleted if a mod has a moment so we can get back to discussing F1.

I'm afraid that climate change does affect all ICE forms of motorsport, and to a lesser degree even EV sport. And especially when it concerns flying multiple 747s backwards and forwards so that racing can take place in so many countries around the world. Plus, the even more polluting cargo ships that take multiple containers full of spares and tyres for those races.

It's something that needs to be discussed seriously by those who are in charge of all forms of motorsport.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Exactly. With the way that RBR is built around Max, Norris would be a complete idiot to go there. Better off to stay the likely leading challenger with McLaren.

I am sure Norris is confident he can beat Max. Even if he is wrong, but I think it would be like a Rosberg-Hamilton situation in terms of their ability and Rosberg eventually got a title out of that. And he won 20 races across 2014-2016. Lando Norris is currently yet to win one. I think he should definitely go to Red Bull if given the chance, unless McLaren look like a victory contender in 2024.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'm afraid that climate change does affect all ICE forms of motorsport, and to a lesser degree even EV sport. And especially when it concerns flying multiple 747s backwards and forwards so that racing can take place in so many countries around the world. Plus, the even more polluting cargo ships that take multiple containers full of spares and tyres for those races.

It's something that needs to be discussed seriously by those who are in charge of all forms of motorsport.

Of course, perhaps I wasn't clear, it affects Motorsport in general and F1 in particular and as a sport we are trying to find a way forward, how we respond to the situation we are in is something that concerns us all. When I said it was irrelevant I was referring to the pointless regurgitation of the long settled arguments about whether it is happening and whether it matters.

[BTCC frog]

No downforce would be pretty cool. I would love to see the cars sliding around more like Jim Clark or Stirling Moss were driving them. Those drivers were visibly better than anyone else at the time just from watching, it would be nice if that were the case again. However, a big appeal of F1 is the fact that it is the fastest cars, which would certainly not be the case.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Twenty years ago there was doubt, ten years ago there was debate, the doubt has gone, the debate is over, it's no longer in the future it's happening now. It's no longer a matter of opinion but one of fact and while you are entitled to your own opinion you are not entitled to your own facts. Fortunately. As to pointing out that a nuclear winter would be worse than climate change what's that got to do with it? Personally I don't fancy either.


This is hopelessly off topic and part of me regrets feeding the troll and adding to the noise but some things have to be said. Maybe all the climate change posts in this thread could just be deleted if a mod has a moment so we can get back to discussing F1.

Three points
1. This may seem hopelessly off topic but it started in response to another person who made a comment about the future if petrol powered vehicles.

2. It may seem off topic and that you want to talk about F1. But the present climate agenda is so radical they would destroy F1 by 2030 (and all other motorsport) if they could.

3.
Go and listen (if you want to inform your knowledge base) to Dr Patrick Moore talk about global warming and Co2.
Truth may be uncomfortable, but being informed is far more important.
Patrick Moore was one of the original leaders of Greenpeace and a number of videos from his lectures and TED talks are on You Tube.

Ten Tenths is an open forum about motorsport and this thread is about the future of F1 and what we would hope for.

Shutting people down because they don't agree with your particular belief on an issue isn't conducive to free and open discussion. Contribute by all means but dont try kill discussion just because you don't agree with it.

[Rusty Nail]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Near zero? Making them 1000hp Formula Fords? .

Maybe. Some of the best racing I have watched over the last four or five decades has been Formula Ford! Despite it being oh so slow! Close racing, drafting, multiple lead changes, fighting tooth and nail for the entire race and the winner usually in doubt even on the last lap!

The step up from there is to aero and crappy tyres and it ruins the racing. I just watched a weekend of Formula Regional (incidentally using "fossil-free fuel") and it was just boring. A bit of a fight for the first couple of laps then into tyre saving mode for two thirds of the race then a few scraps in the last few laps. Anyone who tries to do anything else just tumbles down the field towards the end. Bloody hopeless!

If I want to watch that sort of racing I could get plenty of that with road cycle racing. Strangely, I'm not into that either!

Edit. Actually I think it is the tyres that ruin the racing, more than the aero. Give them tyres they can actually race on, cut the aero back so they can follow or even pass in the twisty bits. They might be a bit slower - so what! Even if the drivers don't like them, they will still race them. That's the way it is.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Go and listen (if you want to inform your knowledge base) to Dr Patrick Moore talk about global warming and Co2.
Truth may be uncomfortable, but being informed is far more important.
Patrick Moore was one of the original leaders of Greenpeace and a number of videos from his lectures and TED talks are on You Tube.

My quick comments is that the topic is complex. I think both sides of the argument are either pumping up the fear and also downplaying clear and overwhelming evidence. Moore might have started in place that should provide appropriate bonafides, but is clearly in another place today and is discounting the evidence that does exists to make his case. You mention that "Truth may be uncomfortable", but problem is... is he really peddling the truth or just a position that really doesn't have much support?

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Ten Tenths is an open forum about motorsport and this thread is about the future of F1 and what we would hope for.

Shutting people down because they don't agree with your particular belief on an issue isn't conducive to free and open discussion. Contribute by all means but dont try kill discussion just because you don't agree with it.

My opinion is that someone (maybe you) can create a thread to continue the discussion elsewhere vs this thread derailing this one into an off topic area.

I ignored this topic when it showed up in the thread just so as to avoid this derailment. But maybe it needs to be derailed so the content can be moved elsewhere.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Not sure Tsunoda joins the fight.
And Bottas looks like the principal.

Maybe Yuki just sneaks in the odd punch then darts away to join those yelling?