Top Hat Touring Car Races

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Also the new FIA passport rules mean that you can prepare any version of a given model to the same standard as the competion version thus you can use a Cortina 1200 and make it into a Lotus Cortina.

thats exactly what Lotus did !

I spent ages looking for a good GT to build my car from, still, at least it has the right chassis No, a huge performance advantage !

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I really hope the Groovy baby series generates the same support, I might even build an Allegro racer

Good point, was there an homologated Allegro? If so you might have something there. A counterpoint to the Capris and Dollies etc.

[TimD]

Not sure an Allegro ever circuit-raced, but I'm sure I do recall a BL-backed rally version under development, sitting high on tippy-toes on its hydrolastic suspension. Not sure how homologation would work in that case.

Brian Culcheth rallied a Marina Coupe as well, if people wanted to go down the Leyland route.

Now, for an authentic and different touring car, what about a Moskvitch 412? Remember Tony Lanfranchi hurling one round on its bumper corners wrapping up the class wins? The only thing is - I'm not sure that there are any left.

[Peter Mallett]

I've just tried to get the homologstion listings up but the FIA website just hangs. I think there is a link posted in one of the thread in this forum. I'll have a search.

[Anuauto]

Both Allegro and Marina were homologated in Gp2 and works-built cars were rallied (quite successfully in the case of the 1300 Marina-and not entirely against poor opposition, Culcheth winning the class on the 74 1000 Lakes against Saaristo and Hagland in the top Skodas which had, allegedly, titanium rods).

But RACING ??? a joke, right?

[Al Weyman]

Ever rebuilt an Allego gearbox? I did once years ago and never again. It is a horrible piece of engineering and would not last 5 minutes in a racing environment, 70's British Engineering at it's absolute worse and as for the rest of the car Allego or Marina, they were total dogs and anyone who wasted money on preparing one would seriously need a check up from the neck up.

[Anuauto]

Wasn't the Allegro gear cluster the basis for the optional Lotus 5 speed box (or was that from a Maxi?). Either way sticking with the Ford 4 speed seemed a good bet...
Rumour has it, BL tested the Marina at Bagshot prior to the RAC Rally with an 1800 engine when Ford were there too. A bemused Ford works team decided they didnt need to worry about any opposition from BL and didnt need to help any private entrants enter 1300 BDH (or is it J, wheres that thread..) Escorts, BL then put in a 1300 and did quite well....

[Al Weyman]

The 1500 and 1750 Allegro was the same engine and box as the Maxi and like the Mini shared a common oil wth the engine, never did see the sense in that idea. That 1800TC MArina was a dog as well with that heavy antiquated lump of cast iron way up front and that aweful torsion bar suspension the thing would never handle. I once for my sins stuck an Austin Cambridge diesel engine in a Marina and those skinny little torsion bars really struggled talk about nose down stance. :-)

[Tedebear]

(this is zefarelly, not tedebear DOH!)
I think anyone who dares race anything made by BL must be certifiable, I mean no one made good quality cars in the early 70's but BL's offerings are nigh on undrivable as well !

I wish I'd kept my MK1 Capri now !

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

That 1800TC MArina was a dog as well with that heavy antiquated lump of cast iron way up front and that aweful torsion bar suspension the thing would never handle.

We had a couple of 1800 estates as company pool cars. They handled much better than the saloons - not that that's much of a recommendation!

[TimD]

Ahem! SD1, P6 and Dolomite Sprint owners form an orderly queue...

[Al Weyman]

We had a couple of 1800 estates as company pool cars. They handled much better than the saloons - not that that's much of a recommendation!

Better weight distrubuton I guess, bit like a mate of mine used to ride around with a sack of sand in the boot of his TransAm as he reconned it handled better. Did'nt do much for the power to weight ratio though.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Better weight distrubuton I guess,

Stiffer rear springs, maybe front as well.

[Al Weyman]

Rover SDI? The only reason that is an OK car is the Buick engine, the gearbox is toffee and the rear suspension was a joke, OK running to Group A where a Getrag box or whatever can be ftted and the self levelling suspenson binned along with the touque tube but not much fun trying to get them to stay together if the rules do not allow these components to be changed. I see enough of them limp off the track wth broken gearboxes etc when I was dong the ModProds as it was never desiigned to take the touque and power in race guse, . Those that do hold together rebuld very regularly and don't use 5th gear. As for the Dolomite I remember it was a female dog of an engine to work on esecially if the cylinder head decided to stick on, the Stag was the same only twice as bad as it had two Dolly heads what a dog that was.

[simon drabble]

Would a Ford Escort be a competitive Groovy Baby car and if so can you have a BDA engined mark 1 and still be eligible for FIA events or would it have to be a twin cam?

[Peter Mallett]

A Mark 1 0r 2 RS 2000 in Group 1 guise or a Mexico. Failing that you'd need a Mark 1 1300GT or a mark 2 RS 2000 to Group 2 spec.

I'm working from memory here though. However the twink wasn't homologated in Groups 1 or 2.

[simon drabble]

was the BDA engine ever homogolated for racing or was it just rallying? The Mexico had a normal 1600 engine in it rather than a t-c am? And were they as competitive as Lotus cortina's were in there day? I am only interested in teh best model i can get FIA papers for..

[Peter Mallett]

Just to remind you.

The FIA passport stops at 1974 so it would have to be a Mk1 Escort and the RS 1600 wasn't raced only rallied.

[simon drabble]

I had assumed it would be a mark 1 - but which is the fatses FIA eligble variant, were BDA's in time for 74 or would it be a twin cam? And by 74 were they being outclassed and if so by what? Were the Mark 1 Capri's quicker (I know a different class but presumably heavier so round all but the long circuits a trade off)?

[Peter Mallett]

I stand corrected if you look at this you'll find a couple of RS1600s in the ETCC which was Group2 in 1973.

[simon drabble]

thanks for that link - it makes interesting reading, Capri 2600 seemed the ones to beat in the 72/73 period. Presumably they are a lot more expensive to build as there are less shells around than Escorts

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

thanks for that link - it makes interesting reading, Capri 2600 seemed the ones to beat in the 72/73 period. Presumably they are a lot more expensive to build as there are less shells around than Escorts

Well in 72/73 the Capri ruled the class. However even then the cars were very sophisticated. Without wishing to dampen your enthusiasm I reckon to source and build a Group 2 Capri/Escort or indeed any car in that class will need a budget of around $80k. For a BMW you will be looking at twice that amount. An example would be the need to manufacture "plastic" rear springs.

A 2600 RS engine (which was bored to 2900) will be pretty scarce so allow $20K just for sourcing and rebuilding.

You may recall the original FAMI car that ran in the BSCC and the FIA Touring Cars races at Spa last year.

Looking at a Mk1 Escort the BDA engine will be more readily available but not cheap. The car can be sourced quite easily. So your budget should be around $40k.

A Group 1 Mk1 Escort built up and fully prepared and competitive will set you back around $20k.

A Capri probaly $30k.

Food for thought though and as you can see from the results the Escort was competitive in its class and now with the developments of the Pinto the Group 1 version is a seriously good proposition.

If you are at Castle Combe come and talk to us.

[simon drabble]

Yup I will be although in the Cloth Cap rather than the Top Hat
It all gets a bit chaotic there but I will definately try and come and chat- presumably a BDA Escort should be very quisk as I believe BDA's are good for 220 bhp

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

The Mexico had a normal 1600 engine in it rather than a t-c am?

It was a standard 1600 crossflow, but homologated at 1601cc, arrived at by taking top limit on bore & stoke rather than mid-tolerance. Apart from being useful for competition purposes, it meant that when I used my Mexico road car for business I could claim mileage at the over-1600 rate!

[simon drabble]

what power can builders get out of these engines now (given the twinkies vary between 165 bhp for a tame one to 185 for a 10 lap screamer engine)
and what i sthe homogolated weight?