[Driver] Vettel vs Webber: Round 2

[strider]

Originally Posted by Kempi

I'd go out on a limb and say Webber did not even want to attempt a pass but simply missed his breaking point watching Hamilton and Alonso. He was so far back, if he really attempted a pass there, it'd truly be a horrendous attempt.

That's obviously correct. There was nothing deliberate there at all.

Direct quote from Webber on autosport.com:

"It was very difficult to get the moves done on the inside because it was still a bit greasy and obviously Lewis enjoys an incredible straight-line speed so it was very difficult to get the moves done on those guys. Then Lewis and I both caught Fernando.

"I was looking forward to the last part of the race, thought it would be a good fight. We both got a run on Fernando. I apologised to Lewis.

"I was looking to get also the run coming back out but when I got that close, the front wing just basically did not work - I could not get the car stopped. It lifted up ... I just locked up, tried to get more on the inside to make it wheel-to-wheel but in the end obviously I hit him with the front wing and the rear tyre. That's car racing."

[OZ_HCR32]

Forget the Webber vs Vettel. What has Vettel actually done? Really, he has won a few GPs but...

Let me be the first to point out that Webber, if given the right car, ie. if he had of taken Flavios advice and gone to Renault rather then Williams then he would be a multiple World Champion by now. In 2006 when alongside Rosberg at Williams he beat Rosberg over the season,

It is now clear that Rosberg is a better, faster qualifier and racer then Schumacher. If Webber is better then Rosberg who is better then Schuey? So if he is better then a 7 x WDC what does that make Webber! A GOD...thats what.

The problem at present is Vettel is a Jr Red Bull driver, so the team have more to gain if "their boy" performs and i am sure internal team politics are at play. I am sure in Bahrain the team said there was a yellow up ahead or something and that distracted and slowed him down in Quali. And this past weekend, the deliberate move to leave him out on the wrong tyre cost him his 3rd GP win.

..there you go guys and gals...had to put an extra silver foil cap on for that one

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Kempi

I'd go out on a limp and say Webber did not even want to attempt a pass but simply missed his breaking point watching Hamilton and Alonso. He was so far back, if he really attempted a pass there, it'd truly be a horrendous attempt.

And that's the second time in two races that Webber was letting the car in front drive his car. He's been a bit poor if I'm honest. I think he'll start to perform better when the pressure is off, but will the Red Bull be the clear cut fastest by that point?

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Forget the Webber vs Vettel. What has Vettel actually done? Really, he has won a few GPs but...

Let me be the first to point out that Webber, if given the right car, ie. if he had of taken Flavios advice and gone to Renault rather then Williams then he would be a multiple World Champion by now. In 2006 when alongside Rosberg at Williams he beat Rosberg over the season,

It is now clear that Rosberg is a better, faster qualifier and racer then Schumacher. If Webber is better then Rosberg who is better then Schuey? So if he is better then a 7 x WDC what does that make Webber! A GOD...thats what.

The problem at present is Vettel is a Jr Red Bull driver, so the team have more to gain if "their boy" performs and i am sure internal team politics are at play. I am sure in Bahrain the team said there was a yellow up ahead or something and that distracted and slowed him down in Quali. And this past weekend, the deliberate move to leave him out on the wrong tyre cost him his 3rd GP win.

..there you go guys and gals...had to put an extra silver foil cap on for that one

God damn, I haven't laughed so hard in ages, and my language means a visit to the confessional!!!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Forget the Webber vs Vettel. What has Vettel actually done? Really, he has won a few GPs but...

Lmfao

So, Seb has won a few GP's, which is a few more than Mark, who is better than Nico, who is obviously better than Michael, which makes Mark better than Michael, which means, guess what, Seb is still better than Mark

Like it or not, Seb should be leading the championship with 50 points, but isn't due to no fault of his own and dispite having 2 successive problem's, he is still leading his team mate, who hasn't had any mechanical problems

Hope this thread lasts the entire season!

[rocketracer]

Originally Posted by Kempi

I'd go out on a limp and say Webber did not even want to attempt a pass but simply missed his breaking point watching Hamilton and Alonso. He was so far back, if he really attempted a pass there, it'd truly be a horrendous attempt.

Originally Posted by strider

That's obviously correct. There was nothing deliberate there at all.

link to footage

I think he was expecting alonso had gone in too deep, had locked up and would push both alonso and hamilton wide - with lewis still on the outside, leaving room on the inside of the corner.

Mark braked at his usual point, but just didnt allow enough room for the battle in front, where the 2 cars had slowed considerably more... and when lewis pulled back to do a switch on alonso, it was too late for brakes to avoid contact.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Lmfao

So, Seb has won a few GP's, which is a few more than Mark, who is better than Nico, who is obviously better than Michael, which makes Mark better than Michael, which means, guess what, Seb is still better than Mark

LOL, yeh, but thats why i use the DC-Mika excuse and say Vettel is the RBR golden child so the team are holding Webber back with less suppport, worse strategy etc allowing Vettel greater success


hehehe, man. I hope people realise i am taking the ****!

RBR are off to a shocker and they need to get their **** together as they may not have the speed advantage all year

[hgmonaro]

Originally Posted by rocketracer

I think he was expecting alonso had gone in too deep, had locked up and would push both alonso and hamilton wide - with lewis still on the outside, leaving room on the inside of the corner.

pretty much this... he was looking to execute a pass into the NEXT corner.

[Jamesy-18]

I'd say (and this is just my opinion) that it's 2-nil to Vettel now. That's two races he could have won and should have won. Clearly the Red Bull is a very, very quick car but also very fragile.

[safc_fan89]

I don't think there's going to be much of a battle this season. Vettel has been unlucky with reliability issues in the first two races, but he has performed brilliantly. His problem last year though was costly errors so it will be interesting to see if he can eradicate them over the course of the season.

Vettel seems to be improving all the time, and when the Red Bull has an advantage he looks unstoppable. Webber has made a poor start to the season, and sloppy incidents like on Sunday aren't going to help his cause.

[Taprobane]

To be honest I think Mark is just unlucky to have come up against such a special driver. I personally believe Vettel is fast becoming the best all-round driver in Formula One. He is as fast as anyone with a very level head and an unbelievable ability to pull laps out of the bag when necessary (such as his one lap qualifying last year due to the dodgy Red Bull car). I think Mark is a very good driver and therefore he will on occasion beat Seb over a weekend, but not a season.

[OZ_HCR32]

...agree, but he will go down trying and no doubt become a better driver through his efforts.

[jab]

17 races left yet...the equivalent of the whole of last season. You'd be a fool to write off Webber or Schumacher or Lewis or Massa or anyone else off at this stage

[strider]

Originally Posted by jab

17 races left yet...the equivalent of the whole of last season. You'd be a fool to write off Webber or Schumacher or Lewis or Massa or anyone else off at this stage

Anyone else must include that flash-in the pan guy Rosberg (aka Britney?)

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Taprobane

To be honest I think Mark is just unlucky to have come up against such a special driver

We could of course, flip this statement and say..........

To be honest I think Mark is just lucky not to have come up against such a special driver {before, otherwise maybe he wouldn't be in a top seat now}

It's always been the big arguement over the years.........

Mark always wins the interteam battles - fan's

Mark's teammates haven't been upto the task - detractors.

[Taprobane]

I don't think many drivers ever come up against Vettel. As far as I'm concerned he is the most complete driver since Schumacher. (and this is despite only being 12).

[strider]

Originally Posted by Taprobane

I don't think many drivers ever come up against Vettel. As far as I'm concerned he is the most complete driver since Schumacher. (and this is despite only being 12).

Vettel was my tip to become this year's WDC and still is unless RBR muck it up for him.

Hamilton is very fast, but nothing like as complete.

It actually says a lot for Webber that he is able to do as well as he does in comparison, but I hope we won't have any more red mist days as in Melbourne.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by strider

Hamilton is very fast, but nothing like as complete.

A couple of questions, if I may:

1) What attributes must a driver have to be considered complete?
2) Which drivers (past & present) do you consider complete?

[Splatz the Cow]

That's a tough one Super Hans - don't know.

On the Vettel Webber stuff, I thought I'd throw up this for you guys to ponder.

Early in his career Webber had many DNFs and built a reputation for being tough on the equipment, enough to be labelled here, and elsewhere, as a carbreaker. Over time he has had better reliability and finishing, when not involved in a crash.

Last year, and now two races in to 2010, Vettel is really racking up the DNF numbers, and there is something oddly familiar about it; a bit Webberesque if you will.

Also, when Webber was at Williams, DNFs had a huge affect on the final outcome for his WDC points standing.

At the moment, 2010 is looking eerily similar to last year for the whole RBR team.

A very fast car, not getting the results expected.

Are the two drivers trying too hard?

[Super Hans]

In the last few years Grands Prix have consisted of two or three sprint races interspersed with fuel stops. This meant that cars were driven on the limit for the whole race and needed to be solid and reliable. Consequently, we saw relatively few mechanical breakdowns.

This season drivers are required to drive conservatively in order to preserve their tyres and subsequently they no longer push the limit for the whole race. Theoretically, the instances of mechanical breakdown should be even fewer, but they've risen.

Could it be that, in anticipation of the new rules, designers have engineered-out a bit of reliabilty, in pursuit of more performance?
Might Newey and Red Bull have overdone it?

I'm no engineer, but I thought I'd throw the suggestion out there.

[Knowlesy]

Interesting theory but I doubt it. They are still pushing very hard and, really, what is there to make unreliable these days? And parts like the brakes have to be a bit more durable if anything.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Interesting theory but I doubt it. They are still pushing very hard and, really, what is there to make unreliable these days?

They could compromise strength in pursuit of lightness I guess. It is said that Vettel's retirement was down to some sort of failure involving the wheel-hub and the axle, rather than a brake failure as first thought.

This is pure armchair speculation though. I'm not in any position to be questioning the nous of the boys and girls at Red Bull.

[Knowlesy]

Was it not that the wheel wasn't put on properly in the pits?

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Was it not that the wheel wasn't put on properly in the pits?

Both I think, the immediate cause was a part that transfers torque from the brake disk to the wheel but it is thought it failed because the wheel wasn't attached correctly.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

A couple of questions, if I may:

1) What attributes must a driver have to be considered complete?
2) Which drivers (past & present) do you consider complete?

Two very good questions that I shall have to think about before I reply. I may even have to resort to a PM.

Just to be clear, I don't think Vettel is quite there yet, but he is ahead of Hamilton despite being younger which must be a worry for Lewis fans.