HANS Devices - Discussion from Andy Neate thread.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by gbaker

That sounds about right--100 pound sterling at the most.


FIA was quoted in 2003 to have spent about $750,000 adapting the design to F1 cars. In the states the R&D was covered by GM racing, so HANS has probably spent little or nothing up front.

ISAAC markets direct world-wide. The only incremental expense is shipping and any duties that might be required.

$750k???!!! They were severely ripped off on that one. That's a lot of time and materials for a relatively small change to an existing device.

[AU N EGL]

Looking at the ones I have seen, I cannot see then costing more than about £50 to make in quantity.

That sounds about right--100 pound sterling at the most.

But then again some Human Resource head chopper could come into your employer and say, " We can cut your staff and increase your production output and save you lots of money. and 5 ppl are made redundant."

If you can make a compatible product that will do the same safety requirements of £50 or £100, and get FIA approved, go for it

It took the ppl at HANS 20 years of development time to get where they are now.

Inexpensive and motor racing can not be used in the same sentence.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by midgetman

That'll be

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/product.html#

Can you get out of the car quickly? It looks like you need to unclip something to release you from the belts, unless I've misunderstood it.

That's correct, and is done so it can't trap the driver in the car. Drivers who have used an Isaac and a HANS are typically faster on egress with the Isaac.

I also think that any UK scrutineer would be VERY suspicious of any helmet that bore the markings of a Max having attacked it with a drill

Then use the adhesive.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by JamesH

$750k???!!! They were severely ripped off on that one. That's a lot of time and materials for a relatively small change to an existing device.

I believe that figure includes a from-scratch series of crash tests, which were documented in a 1998 (?) SAE paper, and trashed a collection of F1 tubs. FIA was working on an air bag alternate at the time, so those costs may have been included.

[JimW]

I also think that any UK scrutineer would be VERY suspicious of any helmet that bore the markings of a Max having attacked it with a drill

Originally Posted by gbaker

Then use the adhesive.

And I would be even more suspicious of the quality of adhesive bonds made by amateurs. Adhesives can deliver fantastically strong joins but need skill and an absolute adherence to cleanliness, temperature age of material, surface finish etc.

And are there any specifications for paint layer adhesion which apply to all helmets?

Jim

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

But then again some Human Resource head chopper could come into your employer and say, " We can cut your staff and increase your production output and save you lots of money. and 5 ppl are made redundant."

If you can make a compatible product that will do the same safety requirements of £50 or £100, and get FIA approved, go for it

It took the ppl at HANS 20 years of development time to get where they are now.

Inexpensive and motor racing can not be used in the same sentence.

Seems that rip off and motorsport in the same sentence is also quite common.

During that 20 years of development, they were selling product, so the development costs should be amortised over those 20 years. The fact they are still more expensive that helmets which have to undergo just as many safety tests (more?) and cost more to make is what annoys me.

[midgetman]

Hmmm I think I learnt this verb at school:

I am properly paid for all the hard work I do
You earn too much
He is ripping me off



Just to let you know, it ain't the retailers who are making lots of money on HANSes.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Hmmm I think I learnt this verb at school:

I am properly paid for all the hard work I do
You earn too much
He is ripping me off

He only rips you off if You allow him too.

If you dont like the price of something go elsewhere. If the prices are all about the same, that's the way it is.

Time to look for another job to pay you more money then

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

If you dont like the price of something go elsewhere. If the prices are all about the same, that's the way it is.

Thats called price fixing which was illegal here in europe last time I checked.

[Eddy V]

Max, didn't you book your trip to Hawaii from the Hans earnings, just like I did?
2 seconds of looking at Hawaii leaflets.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Podd37

Thats called price fixing which was illegal here in europe last time I checked.

That sure maybe, but until some one challenges and the legal authorities do something about it, that is they way it is.

What prices have you found on HANS units?


Most of the prices here are +/- $10-$15 so there is a difference.

[terence]

If these things are ever made compulsory,I dread to think of how many people will drop out of racing,especialy after the discussion on rain lights!. It is a dangerous sport gentlemen,it comes with risk,do we all need a huge amount of cottonwool to wrap ourselves in? Will HANS be usable in historic single seaters?.

[AU N EGL]

Heck driving on the Highways at rush hours is more dangerous the car racing

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Heck driving on the Highways at rush hours is more dangerous the car racing

OT. Really? Obviously more people die or are seriously hurt using highways than race tracks. However what about per mile of use, or per hour? I suspect racing is more dangerous, but it isn't unreasonably dangerous.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Hmmm I think I learnt this verb at school:

I am properly paid for all the hard work I do
You earn too much
He is ripping me off



Just to let you know, it ain't the retailers who are making lots of money on HANSes.

Never said it was. It's mostly the manufacturers, although given the equivilent prices in $ vs £ (until recent $-£ shift), the retailers have some blame.

Just so you know,

I am properly paid for the work I do
I don't care how much anyone else earns
I haven't bought a Hans so haven't been ripped off (although I could afford one)

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by terence bower

If these things are ever made compulsory,I dread to think of how many people will drop out of racing,especialy after the discussion on rain lights!. It is a dangerous sport gentlemen,it comes with risk,do we all need a huge amount of cottonwool to wrap ourselves in? Will HANS be usable in historic single seaters?.

The cost if Hans were made compulsory for me...

Hans
New helmet with Hans posts
New seat (probably)
New belts.

So that's about £1500 ($2200ish). About the value of my entire race car (sans engine perhaps)

James

[Peter Mallett]

Currently we are at liberty to decide. Fair enough, if you don't want to use one don't.

If you do want to use one this is also fine.

As to costs. I guess it depends whether £1500.00 represents a month's or a day's wages. In my case I know how much I'd lose if I don't work for a day!.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JamesH

The cost if Hans were made compulsory for me...

Hans $800
New helmet with Hans posts $800
New seat (probably) $1200
New belts. $400
Side net $100

So that's about £1500 ($2200ish). About the value of my entire race car (sans engine perhaps)

James

$3300 OUCH


I chose to buy a HANS in March of 05. Have used it ever since and do NOT regret it.

[graeme]

Originally Posted by terence bower

If these things are ever made compulsory,I dread to think of how many people will drop out of racing,especialy after the discussion on rain lights!.

I'm informed that "head restraint systems" (i.e. not just HANS) will be in the Blue Book in a year or two as "recommended", in much the same way that fireproof underwear is recommended. So, at least in the near future, it won't be complusory for those who don't want to use it for what ever reason.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Currently we are at liberty to decide. Fair enough, if you don't want to use one don't.

If you do want to use one this is also fine.

As to costs. I guess it depends whether £1500.00 represents a month's or a day's wages. In my case I know how much I'd lose if I don't work for a day!.

Of course it does thats why it should be cheaper, far cheaper and VAT exempt or is it just for the well heeled select few. Look if this thing works can't a strong case be put to the government for vat exemption on the grounds of savings to the nhs and as motorcycle and cycle helmets are.

[midgetman]

Well Al, it's slowly happening. HANS used to be, what, £650? Next year the thermoplastic one will be about £400.

Price is steadily coming down. If as Graeme says they will be listed in the Blue Book in a "year or two", by that time the price will have fallen again, and by the time it's made compulsory it will have fallen even further.

It'll take time, as more drivers buy them the price will come down. And all more modern seats/belts are/will be made to suit them so natural wastage will take care of that.

I reckon this glass could be half full!


PS ISTR that I asked why they couldn't be plastic and everyone roundly told me not to be an idiot only carbon was good enough....hmmm, when was thermoplastic a carbon material?

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by JamesH

The cost if Hans were made compulsory for me...

Hans
New helmet with Hans posts
New seat (probably)
New belts.

So that's about £1500 ($2200ish). About the value of my entire race car (sans engine perhaps)

James

At some point in the future you'll have to get a new lid, seat and belts. So get some that will work with and without HANS (might cost a few quid more, but not much). Then, you can use HANS if you want to, or only have a small extra outlay if HANS is made compulsory.

When I got HANS I needed a new helmet anyway. My 3" belts were fine (normal Willans 3", nothing special and not ordered with HANS in mind originally). The seat bit I'll give you I suppose, but I didn't need to adjust anything on my single seater. Can a normal seat not be used with HANS?

[JamesH]

It was basically an example for doing it all in one go. Spreading the load over a few seasons woudl be generally acceptable (If I didnt feel I was being ripped off by the cost of the HANS itself).

I do in fact need new belts so will be getting HANS compatible ones for futureproofing if thats possible (you can use HANS compatible belts by themselves I pressume)

Seat is probably optional, but not sure.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by midgetman

PS ISTR that I asked why they couldn't be plastic and everyone roundly told me not to be an idiot only carbon was good enough....hmmm, when was thermoplastic a carbon material?

Nothing wrong with thermoplastic! I would expect it to be as strong, but heavier. And cheaper!! Hurrah!!

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Can a normal seat not be used with HANS?

Yes, most non Hans seats can be used. It has all to do with the angle of the back. The seats which have a rather very straight back MAY cause some problems. The other thing is that the holes for the belts (Hans approved seats) are usually a bit bigger to allow more room for the belts, as they have to go over the system and are a bit further away from the shoulder.