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Old 25 Jan 2009, 14:02 (Ref:2378724)   #76
driftwood
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was that a quote from Inspector Clousseau??

i was actually asking the question without using words of more than 3 syllabubbles
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Old 25 Jan 2009, 15:41 (Ref:2378793)   #77
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Brands Hatch BOAC 1000 kms 16 Apr 1972 (MN 20 Apr 1972 p14-17)

A. Migault/Robinson 'B19/21'= B21-72-4
B. Twaites ("damaged at Nurburgring") = B21-72-2
C. Smith/Welpton 'B19/21'= B21-72-3
H. Watson/Fletcher 'B19/21'= "B21-72-1"
I. Roger Heavens ("new Chevron")

Two 'new' cars - Fletcher's B19 magically becomes "B21-71-1" and Heavens turns up in his new car.

Vallelunga (Round 1) 23 Apr 1972 (MN 27 Apr 1972 p9)

D. Red Rose/Tergal: Hine (1.9 Alan Smith FVC) = B21-72-7 or B21-72-8
E. Red Rose/Tergal: Juncadella = B21-72-7 or B21-72-8
F. Red Rose/Tergal: Paco Josa (replacing Bosch) = the B21-bodied B19 again?
G. Canon Cameras: Burton (1.9 "Big Smith") = B21-72-12A
J. Canon Cameras: Wollek = B21-72-14
K. Olivar (Funda FVC) = B21-72-6

Two more "new" cars. Wollek's B21-72-14 is also out for the first time, as is Max Olivar's B21-72-6.

Spa 1000 kms 7 May 1972 (MN 11 May 1972 pp12-14)

A. Robinson/Migault ("B19/21" but presumably a B21)
B. Twaites/McInerny ("B19/21" but presumably a B21)
C. Smith/Welpton ("B19/21" but presumably a B21)
D. Hine/Bridges ("B19/21" but presumably a B21)
E. Bosch/Josa ("B19/21" but presumably a B21)
I. Heavens/Garton ("B19" but presumably a B21)

Last edited by allenbrown; 25 Jan 2009 at 15:47.
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Old 25 Jan 2009, 17:58 (Ref:2378994)   #78
driftwood
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heavens B21 is 16 he nevr had B19
robinson never had DART b19 till end of year
i can only assume MN reporter erred on side of caution and called all the B19 and 21 cars B19/21 save him making errors
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Old 25 Jan 2009, 18:13 (Ref:2379004)   #79
Jeremy Hall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driftwood
heavens B21 is 16 he nevr had B19
robinson never had DART b19 till end of year
i can only assume MN reporter erred on side of caution and called all the B19 and 21 cars B19/21 save him making errors
Heavens 16 -less its wheels and engine/transmission had been sold to the US.We have the photographs of it arriving in Chicago airport, and the MN report as listed by Allen earlier of its being sold.
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Old 25 Jan 2009, 20:18 (Ref:2379107)   #80
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by driftwood
heavens B21 is 16 he nevr had B19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall
Heavens 16 -less its wheels and engine/transmission had been sold to the US.We have the photographs of it arriving in Chicago airport, and the MN report as listed by Allen earlier of its being sold.
Exactly right. We have to be careful repeating well-worn "received wisdom". Heavens' B21 was a B21.
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Old 25 Jan 2009, 22:40 (Ref:2379209)   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driftwood
can i assume that the Fletcher B21-2 car is sold and he buys pukka b23?
or does he actually retain b21 into 73/4 season and dresses car as b23 body and enters as b21/23 all through these years
can get 2 for 1 at specsavers
At the 2 Hours of Luanda, Angola, July 1973, Fletcher and Tuckett still had their B21... with a B21 body, not B23 for sure !

I e-mail a photo to Allen on the spot...
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Old 25 Jan 2009, 23:10 (Ref:2379233)   #82
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And may I add that few so-called "B21/23" or even merely "B23" in 1973-74 were actually B23 bodied...

Most of B19s and B21s kept their standard 1971-72 body (with high front wheel arches) although they were rechristened.

The owners probably changed the name of their cars for "fashion" purposes, but actual B23 upgrades didn't materialize always. Look at the Dupont, Dubos, Promoto, James Bell or Fletcher cars for instance...
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Old 25 Jan 2009, 23:17 (Ref:2379238)   #83
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Thanks Delbert. Could you give us as much as you can on this car please - owners' names from Schikendanz to today, race dates, etc, etc. If we can nail this car's history from a documented appearance in period to today, it's becomes our first 'nailed' B21.

Try this lot for starters. The entries are not always easy to read and my German is not too good!
B21- 72-12
1972 Rolling chassis #12 was delivered to Jo Siffert
1972 – sold on to Clemens Schikendanz and fitted with BMW Schnitzer engine and FT 200 Gear box.
24.9.72 Nurburgring First race European Interserie. It was sponsored by Dahl Kanal and finished 9th over the 2 heats.
1973 – Car was returned to factory to be updated to B23 specification. There is reference to a B23 with a Schnitzer in Gordons book. It can’t be Questers as he was written off beforehand.
1973/4 – Car purchased by G Moritz, raced and hill climbed in Europe until 1982. Moritz got a wagenpass in May 1974 where the car was officially declared as a B23 with a Schnitzer engine from 1973.
1978 – Moritz stopped racing but kept the rolling chassis until 1985.
1992 – restoration work started with a BMW M12 specification.
At some point in the 1970’s the car was fitted with a Porsche 3.0l and an FG400 gearbox.
1994 – Car restored by C Scausberger (who has provided most of this information)
1995 – FIA papers issued with Schausberger as the owner and chassis plate 72 -12. Date stamped 13.3.95
Car raced at Nurburgring and regularly thereafter up to the 1998 season and driven by Rolf Lamberty
2000 – Car was bought by Murray Sinclair and raced in NZ.
Wagepass entries:
Owner Moritz 27.3.74
Entry showing Porsche 3.0l stamped but not dated
My German is not too good but it is annually dated stamped 74 thru to 82
Races:
Mainz Finthen 1.6.74
Preis Stadt Karlsruhe – can’t read date but must be 74
Reingau Burgr – 10.8.74
Hockenheim- 22.8.74
AMS Baliz (?) – 1.9.74
Mz Finthen – 14.6.75
Sudwestpokal (?) – 19.7.75
Preis Der Nationen – 1976
Ulm Mengen - 11.9.76
Berg pr Alb – 18.9.76
DMV AVUS Rommein (?) 27.5.77
Flugplatzre Wunstorf 11.6.77
Int ADAC Nurb Trophy 27.8.77
Bergpreis Veuffen (?) 11.9.77
Ulm Mengen – 17.9.77
Int ADAC Rennsp Finale – 7.10.77
FLugplatz Wunstorf- 10.6.78
Adac Kassel-Calden – 15.7.78
Ulm Mengen – 27.8.78
Erding (?) – cant read date but 1979
Preis Stadt Esshinger – 20.10.79
ADAC Hessen-Cup – 5.9.80
ADAC Hessen Preis 4.10.80
Preis Srtadt Slingen – 11.10.80
Saison Finale (venue?) 29.11.80
Grosser Preis der Tourenwagen 3.7.81
Preiburg Pries 25.7.81
ADAC Sper sprint 19.8.81
Preis der Stadt Esslingen Neckar Hock – 17.10.81
Rheintal MSC Kimlach Wiesetal – 14.11.81
Prs Hdh ? – 13.3.82
Int ADAC 300 Rennen 26.3.82
Preisburg Preis ?- 24.7.82
Int ADAC Hesson Cup 28.8.?
There is a long list of NZ races from 2000 to 2006.

I hate to think what feed back I will get from the great and good from 10 /10ths
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Old 25 Jan 2009, 23:20 (Ref:2379242)   #84
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I will complete the list with Lamberty's Supersports races & mine one day when I get the chance
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Old 25 Jan 2009, 23:43 (Ref:2379251)   #85
driftwood
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driftwood has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Jeremy ( and Allen you should know better by now!)
I am well aware that Heavens had B16-35 car broken down to make his B21-16 car and chassis body sold for £750 as per AS ad in 72 to usa where it remained for the last 36 years and the car is now rebuilt and for sale sadly 2 FAKE b16'35 cars exist and how teh owners can sleep at night bragging they have the REALcar beats me maybe the drink Horlics!

Heavens NEVER had B19 he had B21#16 he even raced it as B21/23 or B23
car was nearly every race yellow body but it did race in angola once in yukky burgandy red
after the car was sold to "local" in Angola heavens has Lola t294 car and March 75s
the B21#16 remained in angola till round 1987/88 where it was brought back to eec along with the alfa 33
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Old 26 Jan 2009, 08:38 (Ref:2379425)   #86
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
So taking the wheels off counts as "breaking down" does it? And thank you for using block capitals to tell me that Heavens never had a B19 - I am quite aware that his name appears on the B21 list and not the B19 list but the way MN describe the car is worth recording.

Delbert - I hope you receive nothing but praise and thanks for your last post
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Old 26 Jan 2009, 09:18 (Ref:2379458)   #87
driftwood
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driftwood has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I never said taking wheels of a b16 equates to breaking down Mr Hall did as he has taken the B21 16 quote to mean B16 -DOH!

I am stating a fact that Heavens never had B19 cos it can be construed from the MN quotation of B19/21 that he may have had B19 dressed as 21 like Dupont or Bosche Humble cars for 72 season
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Old 26 Jan 2009, 15:26 (Ref:2379662)   #88
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delbert
1973/4 – Car purchased by G Moritz, raced and hill climbed in Europe until 1982.
Could this be Georg Moritz? He drove a Chevron-BMW in 1974 and later a Chevron B23-Porsche in Interserie events from 1976 to 1982. See this page on racingsportscars.com

There's a photograph here of it in 1980.
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Old 26 Jan 2009, 23:13 (Ref:2380025)   #89
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Allen
Yes that would be him. I can check my spelling with this list of race meetings
Thanks
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Old 27 Jan 2009, 12:17 (Ref:2380470)   #90
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A B21 was imported to South Africa in March 1983. I have it recorded as B21-72-9 and notes that were with the car state originally sold to RAM Autoracing ( Italy?) on 11/4/1972.
It was exported back to Europe a couple of years ago.
Hope this helps
Ian
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Old 27 Jan 2009, 12:36 (Ref:2380493)   #91
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I have seen notes that say this car went "via" RAM Racing (I) and was driven by Stefano Buonapace but this doesn't quite match factory records which say it went to Italy with a 2-litre Hart alloy BDA. Buonapace did have a Chevron in 1972 but it ran in the smaller classes. I think 72-9 is more likely to be Nesti's very successful 2-litre B21 and maybe it went to Buonapace later in its life.

There were fewer Italian B21s: B21-72-5 went to Domenico Scola with a 2-litre Hart; B21-72-9 went to Tondelli (as agent) also with a 2-litre Hart; and then later 72-17 and 72-22 went to Tondelli with unknown engines. Lots of Italians raced B21s in 1972 but a good proportion of those would have been B19s.

PS: I have Autosprint 1972 in the garage and had a quick browse last night.
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Old 28 Jan 2009, 07:18 (Ref:2381196)   #92
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Salzburgring (E2lSC Round 3) 21 May 1972 (MN 25 May 1972 p10)

D. Hine "B21" 1.9 Smith FVC
E. Juncadella "B21" 1.9 Smith FVC
F. Bosch "B21" normal FVC [revealed later to be a B19]
G. Canon: Burton "B21" 1.9 Smith
H. Tucket: Fletcher "B21"
J. Canon: Wollek "B21" 1.8 FVC
K. Olivar (Graemiger-prepared)
L. Dieter Quester "B21-BMW" 276 bhp "unofficial" engine

Another new car: Dieter Quester's BMW-engined car is B21-72-15.

Nurburgring 1000 kms 27 May 1972 (MN 1 Jun 1972 pp12-13)

A. Robinson/Migault B21
B. Twaites/McInerney B21
D. Hine/Bridges B21-Smith
F. Bosch/Peter Hanson B21 [Autosport 1 Jun 1972 p45 says it's the usual Bosch/Josa car]
G. Burton/Craft B21
H. Tuckett/Fletcher B21
I. Heavens/Garton B21

Rufforth Saturday 26 May 1972 (MN 1 Jun 1972 p24)
C. Smith "B19/21" (4th in libre race)

Dijon (E2lSC Round 4) 4 Jun 1972 (MN 8 Jun 1972 p7, AS 8 Jun 1972 pp18,20)

D. Red Rose/Tergal: Bosch B21 "Hine's usual car" [AS] (1.9 Smith)
E. Red Rose/Tergal: Juncadella B21 (1.9 Smith)
F. Red Rose: Bridges B19 [MN] "Bosch's old car" [AS] (1.8 FVC)
G. Canon: Burton B21 (1.9 Smith)
H. Tuckett: Fletcher
J. Canon: Wolleck B21 (1.8 Smith)
K. Olivar B21
L. Quester B21 (BMW)
M. Red Rose/Tergal: Hine ("brand new chassis" with "brand new Chevy-Cosworth EA" engine)

Another new car: Hine's works Vega-engined car is B21-72-19.

Le Mans 10-11 Jun 1972 (MN 15 Jun 1972 pp14-16,26)

A. Robinson/Rondeau/Robinson B21
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Old 1 Feb 2009, 13:14 (Ref:2383653)   #93
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Drifty - it's just dawned on me that Vincent's "Sep 1972" and "unraced" B21 must be Scragg's hillclimb car. Howlings advertises it in November 1972 ("two hillclimbs only") and then Vincent in January 1973.

So its perfectly plausible that this car then goes to Burgess in Canada. it has nothing to do with the BMW engine but that's a simple misunderstanding stemming from Scragg's ownership of the B19-Alpina in 1973.
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Old 1 Feb 2009, 13:33 (Ref:2383668)   #94
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Delbert - have you ever succeed in contacting Clemens Schickentanz? I'm curious what happened to his Chevron B19 from the season before.
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Old 1 Feb 2009, 19:49 (Ref:2383760)   #95
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No afraid not. I had hoped to get more info from Dahl Kanal but they sold out to a Danish company and I have lost contact with them, i don't know anyone else whom may know CS.
If we get an Orwell race this year I will ask amongst the Germans to see if they know where he can be reached assuming he is still going strong.
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Old 1 Feb 2009, 20:32 (Ref:2383790)   #96
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The other way forward might be through Paul Kersten. Kersten's (German) family owned the (Dutch) Oldenkott Tobacco company and although the company has long-since closed down, the family may have other tobacco industry connections.

Please also remember to also ask the German Orwell contingent if they have any ideas about what happened to Bernt Terbeck's car?
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Old 2 Feb 2009, 20:31 (Ref:2386887)   #97
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Orwell has a guestbook, which is not used very much but you could try asking the whereabouts of various individuals or cars on there, someone may read it and make contact.

There is a nice picture of the Oldenkott car on the front cover of As 11.11.1971 (it is next John Lepp)
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Old 2 Feb 2009, 21:27 (Ref:2386939)   #98
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here is the picture i mentioned:
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Old 6 Feb 2009, 12:31 (Ref:2389739)   #99
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Richard Simms had a Chevron B21 in 1973 (raced in a Croft libre MN 30 Aug 1973 p8, finishing behind Welpton's B21).

This is clearly too early to be the B26 he had later. Anyone know which one he had?
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Old 6 Feb 2009, 12:54 (Ref:2389755)   #100
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driftwood has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Allen please refer to my AS advert list i sent to you he has a carfor sale on the list-there is either calssifed advert for B19 or 21

R Simms is no longer with us so any info on cars he had is hard to quantify
ive tried via Jim evans on some cars
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