What now for BMW?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Nordic

The M3 is a touring car, accept it.

btw, If you cant win a debate with a serious point, i guess its easier to make daft statements with no merit and use alot of icons.

No, it is not!

As to your trying to attack me, instead of actually conveying a convincing opinion, because the facts do not bare it out (by definition, given by the ACO), I suggest a deep breath and the utterance of a few, Hari Chrishnas or a few Ohms, to get back to a place of one with the mind/chakra! To the examples of comparative logic used, it was compared to the logic given for the unconvincing opinions proffered.



L.P.

[Jonerz]

Regardless of the nomenclature used in describing or defining the M3, it is ACO legal.

The M3 would not fit in WTCC - it would be very much illegal there.

The M3, as it sits in RLR's shops, would not fit in DTM - it would be illegal and outclassed.

Chris

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by SteveT

Wrong, the car is legal ....

The car does not meet ACO specs. It's an ALMS-special.

[SteveT]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

The car does not meet ACO specs. It's an ALMS-special.

The car is full GT2 as approved by the ACO.

You can check out this Murphy the Bear link:
http://murphythebear.com/blog/index....hunting-funds/

And if you go find the February 26, 2009 issue of Autosport on page 16 you find an article that should show you that the ACO has in fact approved the car for GT2.

Here's a quote:

The BMW Motorsport built car, which Rahal Letterman Racing will campaign in the US this year, has been homologated as a GT2 car by the
Automobile Club de l'Ouest at LeMans. That means the E90 shape M3 will be eligible to compete in the LeMans 24 Hours and the LeMans Series in Europe.

Some dispensations were made and some changes to the original configuration of the car were required. Yes, it was originally developed for GT2S, but that class went away so they had to negotiate.

It's a legal GT2 car as far as the ACO is concerned. It is not an ALMS special.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

No, it is not!

As to your trying to attack me, instead of actually conveying a convincing opinion, because the facts do not bare it out (by definition, given by the ACO), I suggest a deep breath and the utterance of a few, Hari Chrishnas or a few Ohms, to get back to a place of one with the mind/chakra! To the examples of comparative logic used, it was compared to the logic given for the unconvincing opinions proffered.



L.P.

You talk of facts yet you have said

1. the 997 and the Beetle are the same. To state on an open forum shows a stunning lack of knowledge. If you where not serious that backs my statement made on 18.13
2. Because Porsche have a 4 door car in there range it should not be a sports car. As above

The facts I have stated

1. the M3 is a member of the 3 series of cars. Fact beyond dispute
The 3 series is a range of tourning cars, both 2 and 4 door if that helps, witnessed by the fact BMW race it in the world touring car series and state they are on the websites. Thats the reson it can never be a sportscar, its the top in a range of touring cars.

None of the other GT2 cars can say that, they are stand alone models, I expect if you dig deep enough you may find a fiat fitting here and there on a ferrari, but that does not change the principle i hold to.

What the ACO do with it is up to them, and since when did you take thier word as fact? Diesel cars anyone?


Maybe its time to get of your high horse or climb out your backwoods bunker and accept that unless you have a serious point to make you are out you depth on this fourm.

Have a nice day

[JHamilton]

Good thing it competes in a Grand Touring class.

...but who cares? It looks good, sounds good, and I want one but can't afford one. It checks all the boxes of a cool race car.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

People seem to be missing the reason that the ACO doesn't "like" the current E92 M3. It's illegal as hell. The car is built to the ALMS "GT2-S2" class, which was originally started a few years back for BMW, Lexus, and another Japanese manufacturer to run in. Seeing as they bailed, the class went away, and the M3 was quietly put back into "regular" GT2. That being said, it's an ALMS-rules fudge, much like what they do with the Primetime Viper, GT40 and others, much like how they're gonna keep the lights on for next year. The car is no where near proper GT2 regs, as its suspension and engine placement in no way resembles that of the roadgoing M3, running double unequal length a-arms vs MacPherson struts, and having a heavily relocated engine compared to stock.

Dream all you want, the car isn't going to run LMS, and it's not going to get invited to Le Mans.

Almost entirely wrong on the facts. Though you got the engine relocation right, the problem with that point is that engine relocation of the kind allowed the B3 is allowed elsewhere in ACO GT2. The main point here is that the M3 is an ACO homologation, not an IMSA GT2 S2. Period. Fact.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Nordic

You talk of facts yet you have said

1. the 997 and the Beetle are the same. To state on an open forum shows a stunning lack of knowledge. If you where not serious that backs my statement made on 18.13
2. Because Porsche have a 4 door car in there range it should not be a sports car. As above

The facts I have stated

1. the M3 is a member of the 3 series of cars. Fact beyond dispute
The 3 series is a range of tourning cars, both 2 and 4 door if that helps, witnessed by the fact BMW race it in the world touring car series and state they are on the websites. Thats the reson it can never be a sportscar, its the top in a range of touring cars.

None of the other GT2 cars can say that, they are stand alone models, I expect if you dig deep enough you may find a fiat fitting here and there on a ferrari, but that does not change the principle i hold to.

What the ACO do with it is up to them, and since when did you take thier word as fact? Diesel cars anyone?


Maybe its time to get of your high horse or climb out your backwoods bunker and accept that unless you have a serious point to make you are out you depth on this fourm.

Have a nice day

Firstly they were comparative facts, given in the same vein as the facts they were responding to! This was stated.

Fact: This is a Sportscar and GT Racing forum and the ‘facts’ should be contextually relevant, otherwise they are anecdotal blather!

Fact: The BMW M3 GT-2 being discussed/referenced in this thread is, in fact, a fully ACO homologated GT-2 Sportscar!

Fact: The ACO, which sanctions/puts on, The 24hr of Le Mans. Which is the model, which arguably the 2 best Sportscar Racing series in the World are affiliated with, is the pinnacle of Sportscar Racing and has been for the better part of a century, has accepted it as a Sportscar!

Fact: In this, the ACO are the benchmark/authority that has the last word!


As to the continual attempt to attack my self and deflect from the ill reasoned expressions of opinion put forth, it has not succeeded! I also see principles mentioned in the body of the post, yet see none put forth.


I will have a nice day, Thank you.




L.P.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Firstly they were comparative facts, given in the same vein as the facts they were responding to! This was stated.

Fact: This is a Sportscar and GT Racing forum and the ‘facts’ should be contextually relevant, otherwise they are anecdotal blather!

Fact: The BMW M3 GT-2 being discussed/referenced in this thread is, in fact, a fully ACO homologated GT-2 Sportscar!

Fact: The ACO, which sanctions/puts on, The 24hr of Le Mans. Which is the model, which arguably the 2 best Sportscar Racing series in the World are affiliated with, is the pinnacle of Sportscar Racing and has been for the better part of a century, has accepted it as a Sportscar!

Fact: In this, the ACO are the benchmark/authority that has the last word!


As to the continual attempt to attack my self and deflect from the ill reasoned expressions of opinion put forth, it has not succeeded! I also see principles mentioned in the body of the post, yet see none put forth.


I will have a nice day, Thank you.




L.P.

This debate wasn't carried out in the most intelligent of manners.

And I've come to the conclusion that both parties are correct, imo.

The road-going version isn't a sportscar, really, but the ACO have excepted it as one, are alowing it to race competitively in an ACO sanctioned series. I believe that part of the reason for it being aloud to race is that the BMW M3 is a name synominous with Group 5 and there's a touch of nostalgia there. And it does meet much of the required criteria - but not all. The rules clearly state "a sportscar with a strong sporting ethos" - but hey, it has a strong sporting ethos, and, as I've said, it's an M3. And it wouldn't be the first time the ACO has bended its own rules.

So, can we live with that? Sportscar or not, the ACO have homologated it. If BMW do chose to go to Le Mans, it probably won't be with the M3, it will probably be with an LMP1 car.

It's a very silly argument, whoever's correct, to be settled (or has been settled) by a higher power.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Firstly they were comparative facts, given in the same vein as the facts they were responding to! This was stated.

Fact: This is a Sportscar and GT Racing forum and the ‘facts’ should be contextually relevant, otherwise they are anecdotal blather!

Fact: The BMW M3 GT-2 being discussed/referenced in this thread is, in fact, a fully ACO homologated GT-2 Sportscar!

Fact: The ACO, which sanctions/puts on, The 24hr of Le Mans. Which is the model, which arguably the 2 best Sportscar Racing series in the World are affiliated with, is the pinnacle of Sportscar Racing and has been for the better part of a century, has accepted it as a Sportscar!

Fact: In this, the ACO are the benchmark/authority that has the last word!


As to the continual attempt to attack my self and deflect from the ill reasoned expressions of opinion put forth, it has not succeeded! I also see principles mentioned in the body of the post, yet see none put forth.


I will have a nice day, Thank you.




L.P.

The only fact I have attemped to portray is that the M3 is part of the same family of cars as the 3 series which is without doubt a touring car. Something anyone is yet to provide proof to the contray dispite some misinformed information portrayed as a fact, ie the M3 being two door and therefore vastly different to the 4 door 3 series.

Surley therefore more than just blather as it goes to the root of the problem.

I am sorry if you feel this has been a personal attack on you, it has not, rather an attack on the pointless replies about a VW beetle and 997 being the same etc and the attempt to devalue the basic point.

In my orignal post on the M3 i gave my reasons why the ACO accepted the car in the first place, namely money and the attempt to bring a 'name' into the fold. Nobel and hopefully in the right direction.

The problem with this policy is that it may backfire and I doubt any of us want a field made up of M3's, Lexus, SEAT etc. I prefer to keep touring and Gran touring seperate.

G4J is right however, the car is legal to race, I won't wish it well and hope it gets its arse kicked at every race.

Maybe then BMW will think back to the M1, a true sports car and the first in the line of M cars and make one for the new generation.

[fieldodreams79]

so much fuss over a falis car.

[MJ_N_09]

Exactly. It's times like this that I'm so glad that the ACO doesn't think like half the people in this thread.

[dxk1]

If the BMW wins PLM, which seems like might be a very good possibility right now, we will get to see if they get the automatic bid or not. That should end the argument once and for all.

DK

[JAG]

Give me a lightweight GT2 M3 V8 over those lumbering new reg GT1's any day of the week.