Tilke-Designed Circuits

[blaffer]

Many blaim the new regulations for the total lack of excitement in yesterday's season-opener in Bahrain.
I wonder to what extent the Tilke factor contributed to this boring race. In two weeks time, we are likely to watch a thrilling race on the naturally shaped track of Melbourne, and we might even forget to complain about the new rules.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by blaffer

we are likely to watch a thrilling race on the naturally shaped track of Melbourne, and we might even forget to complain about the new rules.

Problem is, whilst it's a top venue for the atmosphere, it's not really a top venue for on track 'racing.'

Sepang and China will be the first tracks that are likely to offer up any enlightenment I reckon.

[Quintin03]

The problem with Bahrain is not that it is a Tilke circuit, atleast not fully, but that it switched layout which didn't add anything but a whole kilometre or more without any overtaking opportunities. This means the amount of laps decreases without adding overtaking spots to the race. If anything it decreased the amount per lap. If Bahrain's GP layout was used instead of the endurange layout I'm sure we'd have seen an increase in overtaking manuevers by about 15-20%. Changing the layout of the endurance layout doesn't work as there just isn't much run off there.

[Purist]

Run-off isn't the issue on that extension, the corner sequencing is. Except for those couple of sweepers following Turn 4, everything else is slow to medium-speed corners with no straights of any length between them. There simply isn't the distance to get a run on the guy in front before you reach the next significant corner in that part of the track.

[Sodemo]

You can put some of the blame on the circuits, but only some. The cars can take 90% of the blame for the bad racing.

[Quintin03]

Originally Posted by Purist

Run-off isn't the issue on that extension, the corner sequencing is. Except for those couple of sweepers following Turn 4, everything else is slow to medium-speed corners with no straights of any length between them. There simply isn't the distance to get a run on the guy in front before you reach the next significant corner in that part of the track.

I meant that if you'd remove the chicane you'd have no run off left.

I disagree on what Sodemo said. The circuits with the most overtaking are the older ones. Ok, not Monaco but you know what I mean. Can't be a coincidence so it's much more to the design of the modern circuits. I think about 30% extra overtaking could be achieved through changing the tracks and 40% by changing the cars. However if you want real overtaking the cars and tracks would need to change drasticaly beyond recognition. If done right that may increase overtaking by 300%. No one would want to see that though.

[Purist]

And what percentage of the overtaking equation do you think is made up by the possible unwillingness of at least some of the current drivers to take risks that their predecessors did in order to advance their position on track?

(I'm not being accusatory; I just want your take on this particular aspect of the matter.)

[Quintin03]

No equations involved. Only adding up. What percentage that is today i don't know at all.

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by Purist

And what percentage of the overtaking equation do you think is made up by the possible unwillingness of at least some of the current drivers to take risks that their predecessors did in order to advance their position on track?

(I'm not being accusatory; I just want your take on this particular aspect of the matter.)

It is very well possible that besides the teams seemingly not wanting to embarass themselves in front of the whole world by trying out a somewhat risky strategy involving aggressive driving and the subsequent increase in tire wear, drivers are also still so much used to the fact that all they needed to do were to deliver quick in- and out-laps and overtake in the pits.
But there were always both the kind of guys who would not dare going round the outside of a competitor in Parabolica and those who would try to run two-wide through Eau Rouge (RIP Stefan).

Part of the boredom of this race was probably to do with it being a transitional Grand Prix and all the sponsors' CEOs were watching.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

You can put some of the blame on the circuits, but only some. The cars can take 90% of the blame for the bad racing.

Thank you for that post because you are right there...

Just read Sodemo's post again please folks..

[Knowlesy]

The tracks take the blame for spectacle. You could live without overtaking if it looked spectacular.

Tracks 91.76% to blame.

[JeremySmith]

I have to disagree Knowlesy because you could stick GP2 cars, sports cars, or a Ford Focus on these race tracks and the racing would be better, better racing is the concept in the end...

[Flat12-Aircool]

Its not the circuits fault, regardless of the new twisty section Bahrain has 2 long and very wide straights so there's no excuse.

Formula 1 cars need larger tyres and less down-force.

[RotorFan]

Whoa, I think Knowlesy is overstating it a bit there, I would say the tracks are 6/27ths to blame. Drivers need to have a go a bit more.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I have to disagree Knowlesy because you could stick GP2 cars, sports cars, or a Ford Focus on these race tracks and the racing would be better, better racing is the concept in the end...

Yes there would be more overtaking. But I'd rather have challenging tracks with character and risk than a load of overtaking moves into tight hairpins.

That way, even if there was a poor race, it'd still be visually exciting.

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I have to disagree Knowlesy because you could stick GP2 cars, sports cars, or a Ford Focus on these race tracks and the racing would be better, better racing is the concept in the end...

I don't know. I'd rather have a race with one or two overtaking moves at Interlagos than an overtaking fest at Bahrain. Challenging circuits provide better races. It isn't the only problem with the spectacle, sure you have aero etc. to blame but the circuits do bare a huge responsibility in terms of the spectacle or lack of.

[Quintin03]

Plus the fact Interlagos provides more overtaking than the new Bahrain.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by Yannick

It is very well possible that besides the teams seemingly not wanting to embarass themselves in front of the whole world by trying out a somewhat risky strategy involving aggressive driving and the subsequent increase in tire wear, drivers are also still so much used to the fact that all they needed to do were to deliver quick in- and out-laps and overtake in the pits.
But there were always both the kind of guys who would not dare going round the outside of a competitor in Parabolica and those who would try to run two-wide through Eau Rouge (RIP Stefan).

Part of the boredom of this race was probably to do with it being a transitional Grand Prix and all the sponsors' CEOs were watching.

RIP Stefan. But he was this do or die guy like his rocket flights at the Nordschleife and his sensational Monaco F1 race showed too.
I remember Lewis Hamilton involved in a (successfull) 2 wide attempt with Sutil at Eau Rouge during their EF3 days as well as a similar move in a DTM race. Of course, the wide run off was already in place which helped Bernd Schneider to survive his attempt against Aiello.

Bahrain had at least three possibilities to overtake. At the end of start/finish , the backstraight and the last corner back to start/finish. Do or die drivers could try into the backstraight corner even. The circuit is wide enough and even the run offs allow all sorts of mistakes. You could turn around trunk lorries there. I don't happen to like Tilked Circuits much but there is definately no excuse in not even attempting in overtaking.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

I don't know. I'd rather have a race with one or two overtaking moves at Interlagos than an overtaking fest at Bahrain. Challenging circuits provide better races. It isn't the only problem with the spectacle, sure you have aero etc. to blame but the circuits do bare a huge responsibility in terms of the spectacle or lack of.

Another aspect to the circuits that is very rarely mentioned is the absence of bumps, read Martin Brundle's book Working the Wheel, great book and he talks a lot about the bumps in different circuits. Bumps challenge the driver and the engineer, they make handling more unpredictable, the car has to be set up to deal with the bumps which means the ride height is higher and the suspension more compliant, which in turn means the car has less downforce and more mechanical grip. No it's not a magic answer in itself but it's another way in which the modern circuits conspire against unpredictability and interesting races.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Trouble is the modern day driver has apparently developed a fear of bumps

They look so stunning, too (not so much the bump, but how the car behaves, in slow-mo, over them!).

Selby

[jab]

In that sense, it's not necessarily the layouts of Tilke circuits that are the problem - it's the fact that, on the whole, they are billiard table-smooth. The drivers don't have obstacles to make mistakes, and then when they do make them, they aren't punished by a gravel trap or barrier

But then tarmac run-off can be inducive of good racing - see Dijon 79, Bahrain 05, Fuji 07 (although it was illegal)

[mjolnir]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Another aspect to the circuits that is very rarely mentioned is the absence of bumps, read Martin Brundle's book Working the Wheel, great book and he talks a lot about the bumps in different circuits. Bumps challenge the driver and the engineer, they make handling more unpredictable, the car has to be set up to deal with the bumps which means the ride height is higher and the suspension more compliant, which in turn means the car has less downforce and more mechanical grip. No it's not a magic answer in itself but it's another way in which the modern circuits conspire against unpredictability and interesting races.

you mean like 2010 IRL at Sao Paulo?

[nea]

What we need is some San José 2005 style tram lines. Those things were absurd.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Or failing that, just a jump??

Selby

[Quintin03]

Jab, Dijon is not comparable to the modern Tilkedromes which use paved run off areas for safety. At the time Dijon didn't have much paved run off actualy. Only in the direct proximity of the track itself. It was largest at the Parabolique, only 30 metres. To stop the vehicles gravel traps were used to stop the cars. Good thing is Bahrain atleast trys to hide it away under art and sand coloured paint.