[V8SC10R23&24] Norton 360 Sandown Challenge

[peckstar]

Well let my type slower for you

skaife made some fancy comment about having to re-join by the next corner, the rule you quoted does not support that, it just says may re-join safetly, no mention of where. Another example of this happening was at the indy round where Jamie and the Giz both cut the chicane, in that incident at Indy, neither driver joined the track by the next corner, yet skaife did not mention that rule then. I think he is making that up. It is a quite common occurance for drivers to re-join the track at the 3rd corner at Sandown

i'm aware what you were referring too when you mentioned GT, and if anything what i said supported you, it showed GT as a DNF not a DNS, it just recorded him as having completed negative 1 lap

the mention of the figure 8 is a poor example, you are suggesting that a car that goes off the track , no matter how minor should wait to all the cars go past and then re-join. that doesnt happen in any form of motorsport. the normal procedure is you enter towards the edge of the track and not cut accross in front of people, this is what Dumbrell did. he was safe and the stewards support what i am saying in this case. GT made multiple contact with Dumbrell, he was aware where Dumbrell was and had the opportunity to make the corner safetly and without contact, but the red mist was on and he made an error of judgment.

Im sorry motor racing is not safe enough for you

[PVDA]

To quote an example using Winton, if you leave the track at the Sweeper (Turn 6)you should rejoin prior to Turn 7 (The Tank) but so long as you don't make up ground you tend to get away with rejoining at Turn 8. Rejoining onto the back straight (T9-10) is frowned upon as you're short cutting nearly half the track.

[bluesport]

If a driver goes spearing off the track at 200ks or more I can't honestly imagine him driving back 100m off track against the flow of traffic just to rejoin at a specific corner........on most occassions they're probably just happy to get out the kitty litter.

[GTRMagic]

Story Here

[mspence]

Any news on whether that car is shagged?

[Woolley]

I love balanced journalism. 'Horror collision... smashing across concrete ripple strips... slammed into the tyre wall... thudding into the ground'. I thought I was reading a 'Boy's Own' annual. A big shunt then. Actually, how do you 'smash across' anyway? That'd be a slide, presumably.

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Well let my type slower for you

skaife made some fancy comment about having to re-join by the next corner, the rule you quoted does not support that, it just says may re-join safetly, no mention of where. Another example of this happening was at the indy round where Jamie and the Giz both cut the chicane, in that incident at Indy, neither driver joined the track by the next corner, yet skaife did not mention that rule then. I think he is making that up. It is a quite common occurance for drivers to re-join the track at the 3rd corner at Sandown

i'm aware what you were referring too when you mentioned GT, and if anything what i said supported you, it showed GT as a DNF not a DNS, it just recorded him as having completed negative 1 lap

the mention of the figure 8 is a poor example, you are suggesting that a car that goes off the track , no matter how minor should wait to all the cars go past and then re-join. that doesnt happen in any form of motorsport. the normal procedure is you enter towards the edge of the track and not cut accross in front of people, this is what Dumbrell did. he was safe and the stewards support what i am saying in this case. GT made multiple contact with Dumbrell, he was aware where Dumbrell was and had the opportunity to make the corner safetly and without contact, but the red mist was on and he made an error of judgment.

Im sorry motor racing is not safe enough for you

To continue this debate would be pointless, because you and I clearly differ on fundamental concepts such as "safety" and "lunacy".

I'm sorry too - that you have an 'anything goes' attitude to racing etiquette.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Story Here

It was overshadowed by Will's situation but if you can watch a replay take a look at just how hard Caruso hit the tyres as well.

[Woolley]

On this one, I agree with Pecky. Of course you can feed in without the entire field passing. Join off line, and accelerate up to speed and rejoin the pack, just as you will when getting onto the motorway from the hard shoulder.

Of course, haven't seen it yet, so I don't know if that's what he did, but the fact is it's possible with a bit of common sense. Like most things motorsport, it's only dangerous when you do it badly or thoughtlessly.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by Woolley

it's only dangerous when you do it badly or thoughtlessly.

And I don't think it was either Woolley. It reminded me of Tanders desparation move at GC. "I can't let him get in front of me". Oops shouldn't have done that again.

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by Woolley

On this one, I agree with Pecky. Of course you can feed in without the entire field passing. Join off line, and accelerate up to speed and rejoin the pack, just as you will when getting onto the motorway from the hard shoulder.

Of course, haven't seen it yet, so I don't know if that's what he did, but the fact is it's possible with a bit of common sense. Like most things motorsport, it's only dangerous when you do it badly or thoughtlessly.

Ah yes, but you come from a country - dammit, an entire region - where rulebooks are only used for doorstops. Exhibit A: the 1987 Group A Eggenberger Sierras and factory BMWs (the Aussie scrutineers pinged them at Bathurst).

At least here there's usually someone who isn't afraid to speak up when someone's 'bending the rules'.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

Ah yes, but you come from a country - dammit, an entire region - where rulebooks are only used for doorstops. Exhibit A: the 1987 Group A Eggenberger Sierras and factory BMWs (the Aussie scrutineers pinged them at Bathurst).

At least here there's usually someone who isn't afraid to speak up when someone's 'bending the rules'.

Don't forget Exhibit B, '88 TWR Commodores.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

Ah yes, but you come from a country - dammit, an entire region - where rulebooks are only used for doorstops. Exhibit A: the 1987 Group A Eggenberger Sierras and factory BMWs (the Aussie scrutineers pinged them at Bathurst).

At least here there's usually someone who isn't afraid to speak up when someone's 'bending the rules'.

Swiss and German, IIRC, nothing to do with us fair-minded Poms! Even TWR is Scottish so I can disociate myself from them as well, not that any of those Rovers or Jags were ever illegal, of course...

I'm not sure GrpA ever had a proper rule book, I suspect they made it up as they went along.

[craig1]

Didn't see a problem with what PD did, or anyone else at that spot either.

If you apply the arguement offered up by some trying to judge him I wonder what they make of all the guys who over shoot the back straight at Sandown, cross the grass and rejoin down at the bottom of the hill at Dandenong?

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by Rachel Richards

I have actually closed the book on that one ! odds on favorite

After the hours of delays for fence repairs at the recent Shannons round, Sandown is proving to be quite fragile it seems.

The very old armco is almost past its use-by date.

Makes you wonder how they get past the CAMS Safety inspection ?

Sorry to re-quote myself, but after two red flagged races in two days, tyres into the crowd on Sunday, and a combined delay of nearly 3 hours, surely the Elephant in the room isn't that invisible ?

Or has this place been reduced to bickering about an alleged dangerous re-join, and trying to blame PD for Garth's flat tyre ?

I simply cannot understand how a track with fences built 25+ years ago, can still be considered safe ? (100 million bonus points to the first correct answer to the following)

Who signed off on the CAM$ track safety inspection prior to the Sandown event ?




But seriously, how many times do cars have to crash before someone is seriously injured....



And then watch the Sunday Afternoon experts come out in condemnation of the place.


.

[craig1]

Saftey can always be looked at but from the incidents that happened you'd probably be hard pressed to ask for a better out come.

Three major crashed Bright, Tander, Davison & Caruso, no one hurt, cars repaired for next days racing for the first two, a delay in proceedings (maybe better training to put things back together or a second set of tyres ready, I don't know but read the part about no one hurt so does it matter), tyres into the crowd.

Even F1 have tyres go into the crowd and that's with an eloborate retension system on the suspension that is suppose to stop/restrict this happeneing. They have a greater run off area in most cases and also use tyres to absorb inpacts around the track barriers.

With what we have to work with at most OZ tracks, Sandown seems ok, not perfect but as good as anything else.

You could stop people spectating in certain spots and maybe put some concrete there like they have at street cuircuts but I'd bet that most of the people involved in these events would prefer the 25yr old armco.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by craig1

(maybe better training to put things back together or a second set of tyres ready, I don't know but read the part about no one hurt so does it matter)

Knowing the guys involved in the repairs as well as I do and knowing how often they have to fix the guard railing and tyre walls they've got plenty of practice and are really quick at the repairs.

You have to remember that events other than the V8's are run at Sandown and what happened over that weekend was not the first time it has happened, it's just the first time it's been on national TV. Actually it's not the first time but you get the idea, people are getting excited because a couple of big name V8 teams are involved for a change.

Originally Posted by craig1

Even F1 have tyres go into the crowd and that's with an eloborate retension system on the suspension that is suppose to stop/restrict this happeneing.

Except you're talking about race car wheels not tyre wall tyres so it's a mute point.

Originally Posted by craig1

I'd bet that most of the people involved in these events would prefer the 25yr old armco.

Anyone who actually looks into the options with an open mind would rather have a decent concrete wall set up with tyre bundles as required but Sandown over the top does not really need tyres if the wall angles are done correctly.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Rachel Richards

I have actually closed the book on that one ! odds on favorite

After the hours of delays for fence repairs at the recent Shannons round, Sandown is proving to be quite fragile it seems.

The very old armco is almost past its use-by date.

Makes you wonder how they get past the CAMS Safety inspection ?

I had a thought today, during one of my more lucid moments...how will the track pass a FIA inspection next year? I can't see Timmy S being able to influence a FIA steward in the same way CAMS stewards could be "leaned on"

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

I had a thought today, during one of my more lucid moments...how will the track pass a FIA inspection next year? I can't see Timmy S being able to influence a FIA steward in the same way CAMS stewards could be "leaned on"

You Blue Devil !



I am going to claim the bonus points myself, seeing as noone was up to the R.R. challenge ! (what can I buy on Tenths with 100 million points?)

Mr enduro-driver/common-tater/top ten touring-car-driver-of-all-time finalist and all round nose guy Mark Skaife was the person charged with certifying the Sandown track as "safe"....

Now without casting nasturtiums at a bloke that was/is a very fine driver, what the hell would he know about track safety ?

If CAM$ were serious about this topic, a track safety inspection should be undertaken like any other form of risk assessment, in that it is performed by a panel of suitably qualified people.

Mark would add value, but for mine, an experienced civil/ roads engineer would be an essential member of the group; as would a CAMS steward, with appropriate TRACKSIDE and competition experience.

Throw in an OHS professional who understands both motorsport, and practical risk management (with experience in maybe Engineering or Civil Construction) not applied OHS and that to me would comprise a very competent, and capable group.

Things like information (engineering computations) about structures (catch fences & walls) and when they were constructed, and to what relevant Australian Standard would be essential, prior to passing a track fit for purpose (safe to race on).

And for all of you that will bleat about, " how much will that cost " or " geez, who should pay for this " i give you one simple reply.


If you are going to tout the Greatest Show on Wheels, then maybe you should have to back it up with proof that the arenas you pit your Gladiators against each other are the safest they can be.
For both drivers & the viewing (paying) public


And as for the FIA stewards, well what will make them any different from the current batch we have to put up with: hell, with the powers of delegation, they will almost certainly be the same individuals, just wearing newer shirts.......




.

[peckstar]

i might be confused, but aren't CAMS the FIA man on the ground in Australia.

i.e. dont CAMS do the bulk of FIAs work here in Australia

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by peckstar

i might be confused, but aren't CAMS the FIA man on the ground in Australia.

i.e. dont CAMS do the bulk of FIAs work here in Australia

Tats what i said, diddle I ?

Originally Posted by Rachel Richards

And as for the FIA stewards, well what will make them any different from the current batch we have to put up with: hell, with the powers of delegation, they will almost certainly be the same individuals, just wearing newer shirts.......

.

[peckstar]

yes , you probably did mean that,

I just actually typed it out, rather than putting it in code

[ernie endbert]

Originally Posted by Rachel Richards

Sorry to re-quote myself, but after two red flagged races in two days, tyres into the crowd on Sunday, and a combined delay of nearly 3 hours, surely the Elephant in the room isn't that invisible ?

Or has this place been reduced to bickering about an alleged dangerous re-join, and trying to blame PD for Garth's flat tyre ?

I simply cannot understand how a track with fences built 25+ years ago, can still be considered safe ? (100 million bonus points to the first correct answer to the following)

Who signed off on the CAM$ track safety inspection prior to the Sandown event ?




But seriously, how many times do cars have to crash before someone is seriously injured....



And then watch the Sunday Afternoon experts come out in condemnation of the place.


.

Hey Rachel, we were in the crowd at dandenong road, about 200 metres from the crash, and yes some tyres did go over the fence.

My dad made a comment about the catch fence not being high enough, but when we got home and watched the replay, the crash didnt seem that bad, especially when skaifie talked about how well the tyres worked.

Although, i think you said that mark did the track inspection for cams or something.

How is he allowed to say that the tyres worked well, if some went over the fence & landed in the crowd ?

We saw one guy get knocked to the ground, he didnt seem too hurt, but the St Johns first aider people were looking after him, all the time the fence was getting fixed.

Our family love going to sandown, but my dad has said that he doesnt think we will spectate at dandenong road side next year, because, that is the third big crash we have seen there.
Simon Wills rolled the WOW commodore a few years ago, and then garth crashed on the saturday, and then the two guys on the sunday.

It seems like it is a dangerous part of the track, can anyone tell me if someone has died at that bit. I know Lex Davison died back near turn 4 or somewhere, but isnt he the only person to be killed there in a race crash ?

[PVDA]

From memory Lex Davison crashed at Turn 5 (The back straight Kink), you may be thinking of the time he put a Gallaxie through the fence at what's not turn 4.

There was a fatal crash at turn 4 a long time ago but something in the back of my mind is telling me it was something like a heart attack that caused the crash.

There's been heaps of car vs guard rail crashes at various points around Sandown especially when you factor in events other than the V8's that most of you only see "cos it's on telly".

[Average Punter]

We were at the V8 round at Sandown in 2009 and I'm pretty sure Chris Alajajian had put a Mini over the fence in a similar spot on the Friday.....