[WEC] 2012 WEC Entries

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by AGD

Is it time to reconsider bringing back Prequalifying? I feel that some very good teams are going to be left on the sideline this year particularly in LMP2 and GTE-Pro.

Exactly my reason for limiting works entries . If you have so many teams , that cant get an enrty because , p[erhaps we wont have that luxury in the future .

Imagine yourself as a team owner ..... and an enrty in the biggest race which you intended on entering is refused . How would you feel .

Many teams depend on a Le Mans entry to bring in the nessessary dosh .

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by AGD

Is it time to reconsider bringing back Prequalifying? I feel that some very good teams are going to be left on the sideline this year particularly in LMP2 and GTE-Pro.

The problem is that there's no paddock space for additional entries, even for a pre-qualifying.

Where would you want to house another 5-10 entries?

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by deggis

I wasn't eliminating rich amateurs but a class specifically made for them. It makes no sense when there are better teams and better entries available (right now this concerns only Le Mans of course). Reality probably is that these rich amateurs will pop up like mushrooms whenever they're needed again (so to say). Good pro* teams do not.

* I don't mean only manufacturers

When the pro teams decide to head off , ala Toyota in the late 90's , who keeps the series entertaining for us ?

I think the Am class is great . Gives them a chance to shine , like Krohn racing this year , who wouldnt stand a chance against top teams .

[Speed-King]

Krohn had some pretty decent results against pro-teams at LM as well as in Grand Am long before there ever was a specific Amateur-class...

The point is not to do away with amateurs, but with dedicated amateur classes. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen and all of that...

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

The problem is that there's no paddock space for additional entries, even for a pre-qualifying.

Where would you want to house another 5-10 entries?

Do it over multiple days? I don't know.

The problem also is that you have some people who are going to get entries even if they are not full-time teams and such. For example, what do you do with Patrick Dempsey? Surely he'll get in, right? Is that fair though? David Hallyday?

It's a shame though when legitimate contenders for wins in some classes (again, mainly LMP2 and GTE-Pro) are left in the dark even if they are full-time teams in the LMS and ALMS.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by The Badger

When the pro teams decide to head off , ala Toyota in the late 90's , who keeps the series entertaining for us ?

I get your point but you didn't my which was that rich amateurs are always there waiting and they will come back quickly "when needed". Unlike manufacturers and pro teams. They have to be preferred when they are available. You must hate 1990-1991 when TWR brought four Jaguars?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by deggis

I get your point but you didn't my which was that rich amateurs are always there waiting and they will come back quickly "when needed". Unlike manufacturers and pro teams. They have to be preferred when they are available. You must hate 1990-1991 when TWR brought four Jaguars?

Or even worse, don't forget, five TWR/Silk Cut Jaguars in 1988.


Although, to be fair, cars #1, #2 and #3 were entered by the British arm of the team under a British license, and #21 and #22 by the American arm of TWR...

[AGD]

How many Jags were there in 1991 including the 3.5s? Yikes. But, anyway, those were all pre-GT years so it is different in a way.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by AGD

How many Jags were there in 1991 including the 3.5s? Yikes. But, anyway, those were all pre-GT years so it is different in a way.

Apparently 6, 2 3.5s and 4 V12s, although one of the 3.5s never even left the pitlane, and the other one, as we know, was pulled after qualifying.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by deggis

I get your point but you didn't my which was that rich amateurs are always there waiting and they will come back quickly "when needed". Unlike manufacturers and pro teams. They have to be preferred when they are available. You must hate 1990-1991 when TWR brought four Jaguars?

There was only 2 class's then . C1 and C2 ..... big differance ? We now have 4 class's .

I grew up on Group C ..... so dont bring that crap on , and you know it .

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by The Badger

There was only 2 class's then . C1 and C2 ..... big differance ? We now have 4 class's .

I grew up on Group C ..... so dont bring that crap on , and you know it .

Right, but one class is completely artificial and unneccessary...

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Limit the factory team to 2 entries , and let them supply a privateer . That gives 3 entries .

C'mon... that's easy!
How to define a privateer? Believing that Abt will have a R18 in 2012, do you define them as privateers? If most of the engineers are from Audi, and the mechanics, what will distinguish them?

There are many ways to overcome it.

I would do this:
For 3 cars at Le Mans, the third car should be a (works, semi-works or privateer) full ALMS or LMS commitment.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Right, but one class is completely artificial and unneccessary...

Why and witch one?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

For 3 cars at Le Mans, the third car should be a (works, semi-works or privateer) full ALMS or LMS commitment.

Now there's an idea! Well, it would not work so well with the LMS right now, but yeah. Someone send that idea to the ACO.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by AGD

it would not work so well with the LMS right now, but yeah.

And that is the shame of it...
But, we are talking hypothetically, so if that rule exist, there should be a LMP1 class at LMS.

[Speed-King]

GTE-Am.... a class should be defined by its technical rules, not by the skill level of the drivers involved in it.

Turning GTE-Am into a Cup/Trophy within GTE(-Pro) would allow to recognize outstanding privateer efforts while still opening the possibility to reduce the number of entries from such teams. If it is to be a full on class of its own, it needs at least 8 or 10 cars to even be remotely credible... turn it into an in-class-trophy and you can easily go as low as 4 or 5 cars.

The Am-class has neither history nor justification and IMHO it is actually a bit of a travesty... I am not against privateer efforts, but if they don't want to race against pro-teams they should stay in club racing, not at the World's greatest motor race!

[AGD]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

And that is the shame of it...
But, we are talking hypothetically, so if that rule exist, there should be a LMP1 class at LMS.

The only flaw with that is that Peugeot would go to the LMS and crush everyone and Audi would go to the ALMS and crush everyone there. I suppose maybe Porsche and Toyota could go to the ALMS (or LMS) and make it a good battle. I don't know. The privateers may not like it, but I think it is an idea that has some potential.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by The Badger

There was only 2 class's then . C1 and C2 ..... big differance ? We now have 4 class's .

How did they end up in that situation if not by deciding that the time was right to remove classes that there were before 1982, mainly many GT classes? There were also more manufacturers (the heydays), the allocation between manufacturers/pro vs. amateur (C2?) teams was relatively similar than today.

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

Why and witch one?

Did you skip this/the previous page totally?

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by AGD

The only flaw with that is that Peugeot would go to the LMS and crush everyone and Audi would go to the ALMS and crush everyone there. I suppose maybe Porsche and Toyota could go to the ALMS (or LMS) and make it a good battle. I don't know. The privateers may not like it, but I think it is an idea that has some potential.

I don't believe there will be ever a perfect soluction.

You could follow the F1 route: only two cars per team and no custumer chassis - bad for independent manufacturers like Lola, Zytek, Oreca, OAK...

You could define what is and what is not a big manufacturer or a independent manufacturer (having road production cars?) and limit the big manufacturers to 2 chassis — bad for big manufacturers with custumer program like Honda, who could only sell two chassis...

So much more...

Let's be honest, we are allways complaining about the ACO for this and for that, but their job is f****** hard!

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by deggis

Did you skip this/the previous page totally?

hum... probably!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

The rich amateur was always in sportscar racing , please dont turn it into an elitist sport like your suggesting either .

Le Mans' history has been built on large factory efforts duking it out, with 55 grid slots there is no need to turn away factory entries, particularly P1 cars that will be fighting for overall victory.

Not to mention it's factories that fund the sport and give it sufficient profile for privateers to find sponsorship. Without that sponsorship the sport becomes overly reliant on rich individuals bankrolling a team.

Originally Posted by AGD

Wha?! I thought the DeltaWing was supposed to be the show!

Seriously, that thing taking up a garage spot is looking dumber by the day. We'll have at least one serious hybrid going for the overall win. What is the DW bringing to the table that is so shocking in terms of technology?

From day one it was the outstanding candidate for the 56th car, the day Michelin put their name to the project is the day internet doubters should have reassesed the program.

The DW is a technically innovative entry (some doubt it will even turn, how can it be classed as anything but radical!) and will attract media coverage from places that otherwise wouldn't know what Le Mans was, therefore it will fullfill it's remit.

The fact it's a conduit for some ALMS fans to put forth their frustrations about the series is neither here nor there, it will either be a success or failure, next year someone else will take up the 56th car challenge, and again it will be an interesting sideshow to the main event.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

From day one it was the outstanding candidate for the 56th car, the day Michelin put their name to the project is the day internet doubters should have reassesed the program.

The DW is a technically innovative entry (some doubt it will even turn, how can it be classed as anything but radical!) and will attract media coverage from places that otherwise wouldn't know what Le Mans was, therefore it will fullfill it's remit.

The fact it's a conduit for some ALMS fans to put forth their frustrations about the series is neither here nor there, it will either be a success or failure, next year someone else will take up the 56th car challenge, and again it will be an interesting sideshow to the main event.

Michelin has put their name on a lot of garbage before too. The Abruzzi and AMR-One are recent examples. The Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus tire would be another example of wasted carbon with Michelin's name on it.

Anyway, the cars going for the overall win will be far more technologically innovative from an energy standpoint than the Deltawing. If you let Audi, Peugeot, and Toyota build lightweight cars, they would probably would do so in a very impressive fashion.

Just seeing if something can turn is not a good reason to take up a spot that could have gone to a very loyal and competitive GTE or LMP2 team. Giving the loins of Don Panoz' potential spec cash cow a shot to sell isn't a sufficient reason either I don't think.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

Just seeing if something can turn is not a good reason to take up a spot that could have gone to a very loyal and competitive GTE or LMP2 team. Giving the loins of Don Panoz' potential spec cash cow a shot to sell isn't a sufficient reason either I don't think.

The pits for the 56th car wouldn't exist if it wasn't for cars like the DW.

DSC said it best -

The car itself continues to divide opinion to a quite extraordinary degree - Personally I see this as a simple matter, it is a hugely innovative concept that deserves an opportunity to prove itself or otherwise - those that suggest that in some way this project has prevented one or more of the partners from committing to a more conventional programme seem ill-equipped with the facts of the matter in hand - those that simply hate the look of the car can be described entirely fairly as being subjective, and those that simply believe it's a concept that can't work will either be right - or they'll be wrong! Whatever the outcome the irony is that many of the 'haters' are the very same group that deplore 'spec' racing, and, this is anything but 'spec'! The opinion of Ulrich Baretsky was a particularly pertinent one. "On the dynamics front I have no opinion but on the concept of reducing weight, drag and power the plan is absolutely where we should be aiming in the future." And let's face it boys and girls, Herr Baretsky is nobody's mug!

http://www.dailysportscar.com/viewAr...70EA51C1B67481

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The pits for the 56th car wouldn't exist if it wasn't for cars like the DW.

Good. Get rid of the 56th garage nonsense then and make it a normal entry.

DSC said it best -

Um, no. That's the dumbest thing I've read this week. That's pretty impressive considering that I've been spending a lot of time reading this forum this week! I kid, I kid. Well, I kid about you guys. You guys are ok. Mostly. That commentary from DSC is still garbage though.

C'mon Goodwin, get with the program. Do you believe LMPCs and GTC Porsches encompass the great spirit of sports car racing too? Yes, I don't like the DeltaWing because it is ugly. You're spot on about that. The thing is a prick on wheels. This simply can't be ignored.

The stupidity of the DW goes way beyond appearance though. Whether it turns or not is just nonsense. That isn't important either. I don't see how you can say with a straight face that this thing is the antithesis of spec racing. This thing is the definition of spec racing where spec racing has no business being. If you want to see reduced power and weight, fine, allow it in the rules and let the competitors come up with the best solutions. That's worked for over 100 years in racing, hasn't it? Hell, it's not even that new of an idea within ACO racing. Remember LMP675?

The DW is nothing more than an attempted money grab by Panoz and others. Panoz is hoping to make the DW a spec subclass of LMP1 so that he can profit off of this thing by selling his products and services. It's nothing but a concocted idea by the DW pimps to make money off of spec rules. LMPCs are one thing. Ok, we know they are field fillers. The attempted hijacking of LMP1 (or any serious class) just so the series boss can make money on the side is down right hideous. We should never stand for it.

There may be a good idea or two behind the project, but ultimately it is not even the closest thing to the principles of Garage 56 that will be on the grid next year at Le Mans. The technology Toyota, Audi, and Peugeot will bring will display cutting edge technological innovation designed through the natural flow of auto racing that we all love. If you want to include weight and size reduction, fine, put it in the rules for everyone so we can see what the great teams bring to the track in order to strive for victories.

The Green GT and the Courage have feature unique propulsion technology that may legitimately fit the spirit of Garage 56 and perhaps arguments could be made that those efforts are worthy of replacing a regular Le Mans effort. Even that is questionable with the likelihood that a good, competitive team that has been loyal to either the LMS or ALMS will be left out in the cold. Finally, when fans wake up in the early dawn at Le Mans, they want to see which cars are still racing for the win. They don't want to see morning wood on wheels d!cking around the track aimlessly anymore than they want to see the morning wood of their campmates!

[FordCosworthPanoz]

You people seem to actually think this will do more than 2 laps at Le Mans next year. Perfect parade lap debut/Panoscam material, good to see many of the AMR One/Prodrive defenders support the Delta Wing.