Proposed new Historic touring car series. - Page 4

Mike Bell · 12 Jan 2012, 11:14 (Ref:3010619)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I would be interested in reading them thanks.

Here you are then- FIA Historic App J

Enjoy!

Al Weyman · 12 Jan 2012, 11:23 (Ref:3010623)

Thanks Mike.

**chunterer** · 12 Jan 2012, 11:58 (Ref:3010638)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken clarke

My sentiments entirely Mike. Over the past few years I have been approached by many people who want to run just such cars right up to 1986 Bastos Rovers but have nowhere to play. I am now being asked by people to find them cars for this period. If we can get even half of these people out on a grid we will have a good series.

Oh I really hope you can get a few pukka Rovers and other Group A cars out ken, it would make my year!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Simon, unless Ken wants to do it I'll try and do a resume of what could be included in the groups. And thanks for the compliment- we plan on being at Brands again this year

Mike, may I start the ball rolling with some appropriate of the latter models??

Grp 1 (upto December 1982)
Big capacity cars:
Rover 3500
Capri 3.0
Opel Monza
BMW 530
Camaro
Opel Commodore

Middle Class:
Mazda RX7
Dolly Sprint
Alfetta
Alfa GT (JUNIOR?)
Escort RS1600 AND 2000

1600 cc class and below:
Golf GTi mK1
Sunbeam TI
Mazda RX3
Metro 1300
Fiesta 1300 and 1600
Mini 1275GT
Avenger (not Tiger!)

Group A (1982-1985)
Big Class:
Jaguar JXS
Rover Vitesse
BMW 635
Toyota Celica Supra
Colt Starion Turbo
Sierra XR4Ti
Holden Commodore
Ford Mustang GT
Chevy Camaro
Ford Capri 3.0
Mercedes 450 SLC
Volvo 24O Turbo
Opel Monza

Middles Class
Alfa GTV6
Metro Turbo
BMW 323/325i
Mazda 929
Mazda RX7
Escort RS Turbo
Nissan Bluebird Turbo (if it can be found!!)
Golf GTi 1.8
Astra GTE/Kadett GSi Mk1

Small Class
Toyota Corolla GT16
Escort RS1600i
Golf GTi 1.6
Alfasud
Fiesta 1600
Metro 1300

I'm sure there are plenty of others but these are the ones that most would remember I guess?

Mike could you do the same for Grp 2 and 5?

Al Weyman · 12 Jan 2012, 12:25 (Ref:3010648)

That made some interesting reading Mike and IMHO unless I am reading it wrong, the regs for the early 70's (pre 73) make my car and more importantlaly any car built to CTCRC pre 74 regs effectively Group 2 not Group 1 at all! So tell me something like the SCA Camaro with Can Am all alloy engine, a production run of around 50 thet were mostly returned to the factory for their engines to be removed for CanAm, fitted with flared arches (over the 50mm rule for the period Group 2 unless I have red that wrong) or the Capri GA's what Group would they run in in period as I cannot see they fit into Gp 1 or 2??

Mike Bell · 12 Jan 2012, 12:25 (Ref:3010649)

Well done James. It's a deal!

OK, using Ken's date led categories in original post, first up is from 1967 to 1969. BTW I am not suggesting all these are eligible- that is up to the organisers to decide! But in UK you could have seen (and am sure there are more)-

Ford Anglia 1000cc or 1300cc. Oily bits also used in
Ford Escort 1300cc pushrod
Ford Escort FVA engined.
Ford Escort TwinCam engined.
Lotus Cortina Mk1
Lotus Cortina Mk2 usually FVA engined.
Ford Falcon.
Mini Cooper S 1000cc or 1300cc, latter with injected 8 port lump.
Porsche 911S (Yes, it was homologated as a Touring car)
Fiat Abarth 850/1000TC
Hillman or Sunbeam Imp.
Camaro Z28 (hear that Al?)

In Europe most of above and also-

Lancia Fulvia.
BMW 1602/2002.
Mazda R100 (Wankel).
Mercedes 300SEL 6.3/6.9. (Someone please get one of those out!)
Opel Commodore GS.
BMW 2800CS.
Alfa GTA.
Alfa Giulia.
Alfa 1750 Berlina.
Renault R8 Gordini.
NSU 100TTS.
Capri 2300GT.
Volvo 142.
Citroen DS21.
Ford Mustang.
Saab 96 V4.

So plenty of variety then? More later......

Mike Bell · 12 Jan 2012, 12:37 (Ref:3010653)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

That made some interesting reading Mike and IMHO unless I am reading it wrong, the regs for the early 70's (pre 73) make my car and more importantlaly any car built to CTCRC pre 74 regs effectively Group 2 not Group 1 at all! So tell me something like the SCA Camaro with Can Am all alloy engine, a production run of around 50 thet were mostly returned to the factory for their engines to be removed for CanAm, fitted with flared arches (over the 50mm rule for the period Group 2 unless I have red that wrong) or the Capri GA's what Group would they run in in period as I cannot see they fit into Gp 1 or 2??

Correct Al- the CTCRC rules allow more than period Gp1 regs, so the cars would have been eligible only in Gp2 then.

1974 Cologne Capri / GA or whatever (like Vince's) is Gp2. Don't forget FIA AppJ has to be read in conjunction with homologation papers for the particular car. Ford were very good at getting the stuff they needed homologated- in that case on the RS3100 road car.....

Not sure about the Camaro- was it homologated?

Al Weyman · 12 Jan 2012, 12:44 (Ref:3010658)

Dunno, Frank Gardener's won BTCC in the day?

Mike Bell · 12 Jan 2012, 12:57 (Ref:3010667)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Dunno, Frank Gardener's won BTCC in the day?

1973, so it must have been a Gp2 car. Hey, you're the Camaro expert!

BTW Did you know Vince Woodman raced a Gp1 Camaro in 1975?

ken clarke · 12 Jan 2012, 13:18 (Ref:3010680)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Simon, unless Ken wants to do it I'll try and do a resume of what could be included in the groups. And thanks for the compliment- we plan on being at Brands again this year

Mike, I am happy for you to do it, You may have a little more time than me!!

Ken.

Mike Bell · 12 Jan 2012, 13:30 (Ref:3010689)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken clarke

Mike, I am happy for you to do it, You may have a little more time than me!!

Ken.

No problem Ken- with Chunterer's contribution we're well on way! I'll go through Gp2 later. It will leave you time to get your & Mr Mallett's entries fettled.

ken clarke · 12 Jan 2012, 13:40 (Ref:3010695)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Oh I really hope you can get a few pukka Rovers and other Group A cars out ken, it would make my year!

Mike, may I start the ball rolling with some appropriate of the latter models??

Grp 1 (upto December 1982)
Big capacity cars:
Rover 3500
Capri 3.0
Opel Monza
BMW 530
Camaro
Opel Commodore

Middle Class:
Mazda RX7
Dolly Sprint
Alfetta
Alfa GT (JUNIOR?)
Escort RS1600 AND 2000

1600 cc class and below:
Golf GTi mK1
Sunbeam TI
Mazda RX3
Metro 1300
Fiesta 1300 and 1600
Mini 1275GT
Avenger (not Tiger!)

Group A (1982-1985)
Big Class:
Jaguar JXS
Rover Vitesse
BMW 635
Toyota Celica Supra
Colt Starion Turbo
Sierra XR4Ti
Holden Commodore
Ford Mustang GT
Chevy Camaro
Ford Capri 3.0
Mercedes 450 SLC
Volvo 24O Turbo
Opel Monza

Middles Class
Alfa GTV6
Metro Turbo
BMW 323/325i
Mazda 929
Mazda RX7
Escort RS Turbo
Nissan Bluebird Turbo (if it can be found!!)
Golf GTi 1.8
Astra GTE/Kadett GSi Mk1

Small Class
Toyota Corolla GT16
Escort RS1600i
Golf GTi 1.6
Alfasud
Fiesta 1600
Metro 1300

I'm sure there are plenty of others but these are the ones that most would remember I guess?

Mike could you do the same for Grp 2 and 5?

Be careful on what vehicles you put in what classes, The RS 1600 & Escort Twin Cam were NOT Group1 cars but Group 2. The Mazda RX3 in rated at 2 litre, middle class.

Mike Bell · 12 Jan 2012, 14:14 (Ref:3010710)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken clarke

The RS 1600 & Escort Twin Cam were NOT Group1 cars but Group 2. The Mazda RX3 in rated at 2 litre, middle class.

Yes, missed that. Only Gp1 Escort was RS2000 in Mk1 or Mk2 forms.

A Question- when did slicks come in? 1970, 1971? Is there any thought that cars which ran treaded tyres in period will have to do so in the series?

snowen250 · 12 Jan 2012, 15:07 (Ref:3010730)

Wow cheers guys, i have a much better understanding now

Ta!

would the Zakspeed mk2 Escort i've seen racing with you at brands be eligable for this also? I'm guessing so and i hope so, thats also a great car.

Hope you have a good season Mike and i look forward to seeing the car at Brands again, or anywhere else, it was great at the Mallory CTCRC round also.

Simon

Mike Bell · 12 Jan 2012, 15:46 (Ref:3010747)

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowen250

Wow cheers guys, i have a much better understanding now

Ta!

would the Zakspeed mk2 Escort i've seen racing with you at brands be eligable for this also? I'm guessing so and i hope so, thats also a great car.
Simon

I guess you mean Mark Wright's blue & white Escort, as it's the only Zakspeed replica MK2 I know racing? If so he has already raced in the 2011 JD Classics series, so.........

Mike Bell · 12 Jan 2012, 17:25 (Ref:3010793)

I'm going to split UK BTCC and Europe ETCC as they went different ways at end of 1973.

So in UK between 1970 and end of 1973 you could have seen the following Group 2 cars among others-

Ford 'Boss' Mustang. Would be a real treat to see one racing!
Chevrolet Camaro. (Early and later shape. Al will know.....)
Capri 2600GT / RS2600. (Up to 2.9 litres)
Escort TwinCam. (1600cc class)
Escort RS1600. (Various capacities up to 2 litre class limit)
Escort RS1300. (BDH for 1973 only- never homologated!)
Escort GT. (1300cc pushrod)
Sunbeam Rallye Imp.
Mini Cooper S.

For 1974 the UK went 'Gp1'- covered in Chunterer's earlier post. Europe continued with Gp2, but a major rules change at start of 1976 changed the cars somewhat.

Between 1970 and 1975 in Europe you could have seen the above (but not 1300cc 16 valve Escort) plus-

Merc 300 SEL 6.9.
Capri RS3100 / Cologne. (3.4 litre)
Opel Commodore GS.
Escort Mk2 RS1800. (1975- 2 litre)
Alfa GTAj and M.
Alfetta Berlina. (2 litre)
BMW 2002.
BMW 2800CS.
BMW CSL. (12 valve & 24 valve)
Toyota Celica GT. (1600cc)
Toyota Corolla.
VW Scirocco.
Skoda 130RS.
Fiat 128 Berlina & Coupe.
Datsun 1200 Coupe. (Janspeed!)
NSU 1200TT.
Audi 50.
Abarth 1000TCR.

Then between 1976 and 1981 came the 'less modified' Gp2 era. It included a ban on dry sumping but this was recinded during 1977. Zakspeed pulled out of 1976 ETCC due to cost of engine failures...

Jaguar XJC 5.3.
Chevrolet Camaro.
Mercedes 450SLC.
BMW CSL. (12 valve)
BMW 635CSi.
Mazda RX3, RX5 & RX7.
Escort RS 1800. (1840cc)
Talbot Sunbeam Lotus.
BMW 320.
BMW 530.
Alfetta GT. (Coupe)
VW Scirocco.
Audi 80GT & GTE.
Audi Coupe GT5S.
Skoda 130RS.
Alfasud Sprint.

That's your lot. Loads to choose from. What have I missed?

KA · 12 Jan 2012, 19:17 (Ref:3010845)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Group A (1982-1985)
Big Class:
Jaguar JXS
Rover Vitesse
BMW 635
Toyota Celica Supra
Colt Starion Turbo
Sierra XR4Ti
Holden Commodore
Ford Mustang GT
Chevy Camaro
Ford Capri 3.0
Mercedes 450 SLC
Volvo 24O Turbo
Opel Monza

Middles Class
Alfa GTV6
Metro Turbo
BMW 323/325i
Mazda 929
Mazda RX7
Escort RS Turbo
Nissan Bluebird Turbo (if it can be found!!)
Golf GTi 1.8
Astra GTE/Kadett GSi Mk1

Small Class
Toyota Corolla GT16
Escort RS1600i
Golf GTi 1.6
Alfasud
Fiesta 1600
Metro 1300

I'm sure there are plenty of others but these are the ones that most would remember I guess?

Mike could you do the same for Grp 2 and 5?

A couple of pretty significant ones to add- BMW 528i and Mercedes 190E 2.3/16 (Snobeck's 190s were certainly running in 1985)

Alan Morgan · 12 Jan 2012, 19:17 (Ref:3010846)

Quote:

A Question- when did slicks come in? 1970, 1971?

Slicks first appeared on single seaters such as F1/2/3 part-way through the 1971 season. I'm not sure exactly when they found their way onto saloons.

...as far as I can remember.

Mike Bell · 12 Jan 2012, 19:42 (Ref:3010859)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

Slicks first appeared on single seaters such as F1/2/3 part-way through the 1971 season. I'm not sure exactly when they found their way onto saloons.

...as far as I can remember.

Cheers Alan. I think 1971 as have found reference to Dunlop cutting them at one race to suit damp conditions, but must have been a conscious decision / rule change for it to happen?

Couple of Gp1 additions-

Vauxhall Magnum Coupe. We all (should) know who drove one of them...
VW Scirocco.

SAMD · 12 Jan 2012, 19:50 (Ref:3010865)

What about the Hillman Hunter GLS (the Hunter they all chased - CCC Article) I thought it won the British championship about 1975??

ken clarke · 12 Jan 2012, 19:51 (Ref:3010867)

That's your lot. Loads to choose from. What have I missed?[/QUOTE]

TRIUMPH DOLOMITE SPRINT!!!!!!

**chunterer** · 12 Jan 2012, 20:14 (Ref:3010884)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

A couple of pretty significant ones to add- BMW 528i and Mercedes 190E 2.3/16 (Snobeck's 190s were certainly running in 1985)

Ah yes, nice one!

If a 190/16 came out to play that would be quite something though wouldn't it.

The Alfa 75 also started in 1985 IIRC?

Middles class cars (1601-2500cc) weren't great in variety IIRC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAMD

What about the Hillman Hunter GLS (the Hunter they all chased - CCC Article) I thought it won the British championship about 1975??

Yes it was the Avenger, Sam. It's in the list a few posts back

Bernard Unett got a hat trick of titles or something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Couple of Gp1 additions-

Vauxhall Magnum Coupe. We all (should) know who drove one of them...
VW Scirocco.

Hmmm Magnum drivers... Whizzo?!?

SAMD · 12 Jan 2012, 20:42 (Ref:3010896)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken clarke

That's your lot. Loads to choose from. What have I missed?

TRIUMPH DOLOMITE SPRINT!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Check out post 78

SAMD · 12 Jan 2012, 20:59 (Ref:3010900)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Ah yes, nice one!

If a 190/16 came out to play that would be quite something though wouldn't it.

The Alfa 75 also started in 1985 IIRC?

Middles class cars (1601-2500cc) weren't great in variety IIRC.

Yes it was the Avenger, Sam. It's in the list a few posts back

Bernard Unett got a hat trick of titles or something?

Hmmm Magnum drivers... Whizzo?!?

I dont think it was the Avenger I was thinking of Chunty, or the article would not have been named as it was. I remember the billboards said a wolf in sheeps clothing, which it was. Nevertheless it was a long time ago and I could be wrong.

VIVA GT · 12 Jan 2012, 21:22 (Ref:3010907)

I spoke to someone at ASI today who has a genuine, Group A BMW 635 who would be very interested in this, as long as it's applicable...

Al Weyman · 12 Jan 2012, 22:22 (Ref:3010932)

with all these different changes over the years wont it be very difficult to set a level playing field?

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