Long Beach to IRL? - Page 4

luke · 9 Oct 2004, 17:19 (Ref:1119824)

Yes good point Indycool.

indycool · 9 Oct 2004, 17:19 (Ref:1119825)

LadyRaceFan, I disagree. Hundreds of thousands of people who attend each May disagree. The tens of thousands who visit the Speedway's museum 365 days a year and/or take a bus tour disagree. Those teams who collect part of a $10 million purse disagree. The sponsors of those cars and Toyota, Honda, Chevy and Firestone disagree.

Dov · 9 Oct 2004, 18:50 (Ref:1119845)

Quote:

Originally posted by indycool
LadyRaceFan, I disagree. Hundreds of thousands of people who attend each May disagree. The tens of thousands who visit the Speedway's museum 365 days a year and/or take a bus tour disagree. Those teams who collect part of a $10 million purse disagree. The sponsors of those cars and Toyota, Honda, Chevy and Firestone disagree.

So what your saying indycool is that the crowds are just as big now as they were pre-1996??? And i'm not just talking about race day, but the whole month of May.

Dov · 9 Oct 2004, 19:03 (Ref:1119849)

Quote:

Originally posted by luke

The indy 500 isn't as great as it used to be, but dosn't make it a joke Dov.

Yeah, and why's that, luke?

indycool · 9 Oct 2004, 19:22 (Ref:1119854)

Yes, Dov, I'm saying they're comparable. For one thing, Carb Day drew an unusually big crowd this year. For another, they've added and subtracted and added and subtracted seating because a few things have changed since 1996. I know they lost seating in the Tower Terrace when the F1 garages were built, but then added some in the north short chute.

In 1996, the Brickyard 400 was in its third year. Later, a Formula One race was added. I attend every race there but my ticket budget has tripled. For some people, that might not be possible and they may choose one or two of the other events.

It's the biggest race in the world in the world's largest seating facility with a $10-million-plus purse. That's hardly a "joke."

macdaddy · 9 Oct 2004, 19:47 (Ref:1119862)

I really see no reason why this thread has become one of beating a dead horse. It certainly seems as if the focus of this conversation has drifted away from talking about the future of Long Beach. Debating the IRL and the Indy500 is pointless and tiresome.

luke · 9 Oct 2004, 19:57 (Ref:1119867)

Quote:

Originally posted by Dov
Yeah, and why's that, luke?

Well I certainly know your view!

Back to the topic..........

Does anyone know how long the contract is for ChampCars to race at Long beach.

LadyRaceFan · 9 Oct 2004, 20:03 (Ref:1119870)

Quote:

Originally posted by indycool
LadyRaceFan, I disagree. Hundreds of thousands of people who attend each May disagree. The tens of thousands who visit the Speedway's museum 365 days a year and/or take a bus tour disagree. Those teams who collect part of a $10 million purse disagree. The sponsors of those cars and Toyota, Honda, Chevy and Firestone disagree.

Hundreds of Thousands? Where are they hiding all of these people? Really Indy what are you drinking? I'm not saying that A lot of people don't show up for the 500. But the attendance isn't anything like it used to be. For race day or for the rest of the month as far as that goes.

And how much of the stuff that is in the museums is Pre-IRL? I wouldn't know as I have never been there. I am just asking.

When I was younger the 500 used to be "All That" it isn't anymore. Not to me and not to a lot of other people. If it's still as special to you as it use to be, that's great. I salute you. All I'm saying (and a few others on this board) is that it isn't what it use to be and that is a shame. Not just for the IRL but for every race fan out there. Tony George has made some bad decisions in the past and it shows. Not that Tony is the only one in racing that has made bad decisions, he is just the only one running the Indy 500.

The beauty of living in a Free Country is that we are all intitled to our opinions. Your intitled to yours and the rest of us are intitled to ours. If the rest of us choose not to drink the Kool-aid that is our choice.

luke · 9 Oct 2004, 20:05 (Ref:1119874)

Back to the topic..............(Future of Long beach!)

Muzza · 9 Oct 2004, 20:22 (Ref:1119891)

Quote:

Originally posted by luke
[...]Does anyone know how long the contract is for ChampCars to race at Long beach.[...]

This is officially a mystery, so be careful with what you read in message boards and fora. Please allow me to explain. I here repeat what I learned from a member of the Long Beach Grand Prix Association.

There was a contract between LBGPA and CART that, as it appears, would last up to 2005. Depending on how one interprets the information (the final years of CART management were not really clear in a number of aspects), a one-year extension (2006) had also been agreed upon. In any case, this does not matter because CART no longer exists and the contract cannot be simply "inherited" by OWRS.

(Gentilozzi made some statements in which he tried to be smart and say that OWRS and Long Beach were already tied until 2006. Some media outlets jumped in this bandwagon months ago, but the legal binding bewteen LBGPA and CART has expired and it cannot be forwarded to OWRS).

To the best of my knowledge, the events of last February and March led to an agreement between OWRS and LBGPA covering 2004 only. Remember that this race was indeed finalized in a hurry and we should all be thankful for the amazing efforts the LBGPA pulled out to make it happen (they really stuck their necks out of the window). I asked my friend if there is a contract for 2005 and the answer was "I don't think so". I asked if there is a letter of intention, and he said "not that I am aware of. I never heard of anything."

He and I agree that the most likely scenario as it stands today is that Champ Car will race at Long Beach in 2005 but that the changes of the IRL taking the place over after that are quite high.

LadyRaceFan · 9 Oct 2004, 20:23 (Ref:1119893)

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyRaceFan

The beauty of living in a Free Country is that we are all intitled to our opinions. Your intitled to yours and the rest of us are intitled to ours. If the rest of us choose not to drink the Kool-aid that is our choice.

Oops, excuse the spelling, should be "entitiled" my bad.

Boli-Nica · 9 Oct 2004, 20:50 (Ref:1119913)

Indycool, to paraphrase your quote, your intense dislike for Chammp Car as part of the IRL jihad is well-documented.

You first argue that most people at Long Beach are just there for the event. You seem to suggest, they would be there for the IRL too.

Did you read my first post?

I quoted Michelian himself saying that 65 percent of people are there for the event and 35 percent are 'race fans.' these are folks who come back, year after year, and this being a street course, it is safe to assume they are largely road racing fans.

I am amazed by the kind of generalizations that some oval racing fans like Indycool make about road racing fans. Particuarly more amazing if you consider all the RR fans that end up screaming at them on the internet.

So allow me to generalize a little, but lets say I probably have a little more experience with road racing fans than Indycool does. If any fans are more likely than not to be knowledgeable about the split, it is road racing fans.

Needless to say, the ones who do like open wheel tend to come down on the CART side of the argument. And needless to say, some of them are among the most passionate CCWS supporters. They do not like Mr. George, period.

They are the numerous folks walking around Road America wearing Champ Car gear. They know the names of the driver by name. Guess who are thone threatening to not renew their season tickets at Road America if CCWS is not on the bill? At Long Beach these are the fans that booed Bobby Rahal this year when he showed his face up. These fans are also the ones who flood Michelian's box with Emails whenever the rumors about IRL returning to Long Beach come around.

So lets get back to the whole attendance issue. If 35 percent of the people attending are race fans, can you afford to have many of these folks not returning next year? What if attendance drops by 20 percent?

Throw in the inevitable controversy, when people write anry letters to Long Beach papaers, and I guarantee some of the party people stay away as well.

Talk about a buzz kill, Long Beach could end up with much reduced attendance.

Where does the 15,000 at Fontana get thrown into this equation?

That is what the IRL can draw in this market, without benefit of NASCAR track packages. Does that sound like the IRL can replace bodies at the track in nearby Long Beach. Nope. If only 15,000 show up for the Indy Champion, seems he won't be much of a draw at Long Beach as well.

It is well documented that at every track, except one, where the IRL has replaced a CARY event, attendance has gone down. Fontana is proof positive of that. What do all the tracks have in common?? They are all ovals. Imagine, what will happen when IRL replaces Champ Car at a Road Course where Champ Cars have raced for a long time? And St. Pete's doesn't count, since it has only had one CART Race, not the 20 straight years that Champ Cars have been at the Beach.

Its better to stick with what works.

luke · 9 Oct 2004, 20:56 (Ref:1119918)

The post is officialy now oftopic Macdaddy has already threatened to close it well......

Boli-Nica · 9 Oct 2004, 21:18 (Ref:1119931)

Quote:

Originally posted by indycool
Dov, the IRL would not exist if it hadn't been for the Indianapolis 500. CART wouldn't have been born in 1979 if it hadn't been for the Indianapolis 500. USAC would not have been born in 1956 if it hadn't been for the Indianapolis 500.

Champ Car wouldn't be around today if it wasn't for their extremely loyal fan base.
These fans did not follow the likes of Kanaan, DeFerran, and Franchitti. I can bet you attendance at Fontana would have been much higher were that case, and Indy would have been a sell-out.

These fans 'get it' and there are enough of them out there to make a succes like Long Beach become a dismal failure if another series comes in.

indycool · 9 Oct 2004, 21:41 (Ref:1119953)

Yes, Boli, I think Long Beach would be just as successful with the IRL, to answer that question.

That's the first I've heard the figure of 15,000 for Fontana, for one thing. The LA Times, San Bernardino Sun, Long Beach Press-Telegram and some others estimated 35,000. Riverside Press-Enterprise estimated 30,000. Mark C. estimated 10,000.

You are picturing the OWRS as having a great number of hardcore fans who hate TG enough to avoid attending the Long Beach GP if the IRL runs there. I think that's untrue. If it was true, CW would have active membership of much more than it does.

Road America? Bruggenthies said attendance was off 40 percent. Where were all these hardcore fans at Laguna Seca, which used to be a beautiful CART bastion?

On TV, OWRS has yet to have a rating of over 296,000 homes for a telecast this year.

So, I respectfully disagree with your argument.

And LadyRaceFan, I will take the hint from macdaddy that the "500" is now off-topic. I suppose one day we'll discuss it on another thread.

Kicking-back · 9 Oct 2004, 21:48 (Ref:1119963)

And we'll end up with no top-class single seater racing in the USA at all if the infighting continues.

Someone has to be brave enough to get together.

Boli-Nica · 9 Oct 2004, 22:11 (Ref:1119971)

Quote:

You are picturing the OWRS as having a great number of hardcore fans who hate TG enough to avoid attending the Long Beach GP if the IRL runs there. I think that's untrue. If it was true, CW would have active membership of much more than it does.

Why do you keep referring back to one web-site? CW is one of several out there including Off Camber, Champweb, ATM, which are geared mainly towards Champ Cars.
If I was going to use that criteria, I could turn around and ask if the IRL has any hardcore fan base left at all, since Trackforum seems pretty dead now. Last time I checked over there, threads about Sarah Fisher driving a Busch race and ragging on Robin Miller, had more replies than anything having to do with the new champion.

Quote:

Road America? Bruggenthies said attendance was off 40 percent. Where were all these hardcore fans at Laguna Seca, which used to be a beautiful CART bastion?

Please provide a direct link.

JohnSSC · 9 Oct 2004, 23:47 (Ref:1120007)

I think the references to attendance at particular websites proves a point: That there is a "hardcore" of fandom that is willing to attend the site of their choice.

Statistically speaking, the number of people who view or post at these websites has to be very small compared to the subset even of open wheel racing fans, let alone those who favor one series over the other.

So when the arguement is made that a portion of what is guessed to be a figure of 35% as "hardcore" race fans, we are supposed to somehow extrapolate an attendance drop for the LBGP based on a change from OWRS to IRL.

Does anyone have any substantive numbers that would stratify the interest level of the attendees of the LBGP or any street race, actually?

One can presume that the % of hardcore fans as a total of those attending a race at a road circuit would be higher. Street races are events designed to attract those who would not normally attend a race otherwise.

I would also like to suggest that having a background in road racing (which I do) does not automatically make one any smarter about racing in general than someone who has ovals as their background. Both disciplines have their intricacies, but racin' is racin' as they say!

JohnSSC · 10 Oct 2004, 00:30 (Ref:1120020)

And thinking about it further, what I did not make clear is that I do not believe there is any way to extrapolate attendance at web sites to attendance at particular races.

For example, let's say the LBGP had 100,000 show up on race day. If we accept the 35% figure as representing hardcore fans (and I think that number is inflated), the 35,000 would be the number out of which the drop in attendance would come, right? What percent of those fans would not show up if the LBGP replaced OWRS with IRL?

So that being said, what if 30% of that subset said: "Nope, won't watch IRL - no way." Then that means 10,500 fewer in attendance - maybe (this would represent 10.5% of the original attendees). The reason I say maybe is that despite the underwhelming response to Fontana, having more "name" drivers might bring some addtional fans out. Or, a better package of support races might result which would also bring some additional fans. Don't forget, Toyota will be marketing this race like crazy if it goes to the IRL. These items would then "close the gap" in regards to the loss of the hardcore fan - or at least the hardcore OWRS fan - and perhaps gain some hardcore IRL fans.

My point here is that there are a number of variables that would have to be taken into consideration in order to prove this change would help or hurt attendance and the statisitical information as to the stratification of the demographic is not there. Unless someone has it.

Muzza, you seem pretty well connected to the business side. Are there any models out there showing what the stratification levels of race fans attend these things?

indycool · 10 Oct 2004, 12:55 (Ref:1120291)

Boli, it's a lot of the same people posting at all those sites.

I looked back to find you a link and couldn't find it in the archives, but I believe it was a Sheboygan Press story after the Elkhart race that quoted Bruggenthies as such and that RA lost $500,000 on the show. Gentilozzi countered in the story that OWRS spent "five times that" to bring the show to town. It was pretty acrimonious both ways, pointing fingers. Any number of places you can find my point about Laguna.

In connection with John's post, you hafta take into consideration that a "hardcore" OWRS fan from Pennsylvania is unlikely to go to Long Beach anyway and race fans are spread out all over the world, as are the "hardcores." The audience at these races is 85-90 percent LOCAL, if not more. How many "hardcores" from the U.S. have gone to Surfers? They sure don't "make or break" that event. Then, OF that number of "hardcores," how many are hardcore enough that they would not attend because they hate TG? How many are race fans that would like to see the cars that run at Indy there? Impossible to tell.

LadyRaceFan · 11 Oct 2004, 10:45 (Ref:1120936)

Quote:

Originally posted by indycool
Boli, it's a lot of the same people posting at all those sites.

I looked back to find you a link and couldn't find it in the archives, but I believe it was a Sheboygan Press story after the Elkhart race that quoted Bruggenthies as such and that RA lost $500,000 on the show. Gentilozzi countered in the story that OWRS spent "five times that" to bring the show to town. It was pretty acrimonious both ways, pointing fingers. Any number of places you can find my point about Laguna.

In connection with John's post, you hafta take into consideration that a "hardcore" OWRS fan from Pennsylvania is unlikely to go to Long Beach anyway and race fans are spread out all over the world, as are the "hardcores." The audience at these races is 85-90 percent LOCAL, if not more. How many "hardcores" from the U.S. have gone to Surfers? They sure don't "make or break" that event. Then, OF that number of "hardcores," how many are hardcore enough that they would not attend because they hate TG? How many are race fans that would like to see the cars that run at Indy there? Impossible to tell.

Well Indy I for one am a hardcore fan that IS going to Surfer's and I would not go to Long Beach to see an IRL race. Not because I hate TFG but because I don't like the IRL cars. IMO they are ugly cars that sound like ****. I had free tickets to Fontana and didn't go for that very reason. Had nothing to do with Tony G. or any of the ex-CART (Champcar) drivers that happen to make up the IRL field.

Boli-Nica · 11 Oct 2004, 14:52 (Ref:1121118)

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnSSC
I think the references to attendance at particular websites proves a point: That there is a "hardcore" of fandom that is willing to attend the site of their choice.

Statistically speaking, the number of people who view or post at these websites has to be very small compared to the subset even of open wheel racing fans, let alone those who favor one series over the other.

So when the arguement is made that a portion of what is guessed to be a figure of 35% as "hardcore" race fans, we are supposed to somehow extrapolate an attendance drop for the LBGP based on a change from OWRS to IRL.

Does anyone have any substantive numbers that would stratify the interest level of the attendees of the LBGP or any street race, actually?

One can presume that the % of hardcore fans as a total of those attending a race at a road circuit would be higher. Street races are events designed to attract those who would not normally attend a race otherwise.

I would also like to suggest that having a background in road racing (which I do) does not automatically make one any smarter about racing in general than someone who has ovals as their background. Both disciplines have their intricacies, but racin' is racin' as they say!

1. The numbers come from a Michelian interview, where he stated that 65% of fans at the Beach are just 'casual' fans, and that 35% are 'race fans'. Is this the result of an accurate survey? I dunno. But seems like a 'probable' number.

2. Champ Cars have run at the beach for 20 years. Many of the true race fans there, obviously know who runs there. If not, a large number of the crowd wouldn't have booed Bobby Rahal when he was spotted from the grandstands. Many of these fans have 'brand loyalty' to the series, something Michelian has acknowledged, talking about how 'loyal' many of the Champ Car fans are.

3. Besides the race fans, there is even the most casual of fans, who can actually care who runs there. Michelian gave the example of people calling before the 2004 race to ask whether the 'guy who almost won, but then blew up and cried afterwards" was going to be there, meaning Jourdain.

4. Bad publicity, the result of a controversy can lower attendance. All the problems with CCWS might have contributed something to attendance this year, which still end up being great. But stir up some controversy due to a change- which inevitably will happen, at least partly fueled by angry CCWS supporters writing newspapers, and maybe some of the casual fans don't go as well.

5. My point about the 'sports car' fans is not about how knowledgeable about racing they are. It is how many oval fans make blanket assumptions about road racing fans, without really having been around them.

indycool · 11 Oct 2004, 15:14 (Ref:1121126)

LadyRaceFan, that's your privilege and your opinion and you have a perfect right to them.

Boli, it's only been a few years since Kanaan, Herta, Castroneves, Franchitti, Dixon, etc. were the heroes and considered the "REAL stars and the REAL cars." If they were so great then and REAL road-racing fans followed them THEN, why do those of you consider them on the CW "F" list now as diminished souls? If the "casual fans" knew anything about them then, they know about them now.

Kicking-back · 11 Oct 2004, 15:51 (Ref:1121159)

Bobby Rahal is a legend in the history of Champcar.

"Real" fans would not boo him.

Boli-Nica · 11 Oct 2004, 17:13 (Ref:1121248)

Indycool, casual fans have probably forgotten about who Kanaan, Helio are anyway. They obviously don't watch them on T.V. as the .1 figures show.

That is one big point, that when teams and drivers left the series for the IRL, the fans did not follow along.

Bobby Rahal may be a legend, but many fans are angry at him for leaving Champ Car. That is why they booed to show their displeasure with him.

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