Disgraceful Article About ChampCar

[Dov]

It's obvious what your agenda is here, Ryan and if you think your gonna scare us ChampCar fans with your mumbo jumbo, it won't work!

[monaroCountry]

As for Besnard, I don't want to be overly critical of him, but I'm forced to: He was way off the pace and on a fuel run. It has no bearing on the state of CC. Watching on TV they showed brief coverage of Pat catching Besnard at a rate of 2-3 seconds a lap.

For some guy to finish seventh after 2 days practice, swapping back and forth between open and sedan racing, very limited race preperation, troubles with his gears, two spins and four pit stops (what was the average # of stops?) I think is pretty good. If you compare this with an endurance in V8 like bathurst, one spin is enough to prevent you from finishing in the top 15.

As for the V8s, I'd rather watch Grand Am.

Personal preferences. Look at the field in V8s, its filled with champions from other category (especially thwe endurance races). Its alot more competitive than many international race, without the hype and ego of many international events/drivers. I truely believe that PAY DRIVERS are dumbing down the level of competition of both champ car and F1. Im truely against this, since it also prevents great drivers from driving.

[indycool]

Dov, if it's obvious what the "agenda" is for someone from Sydney with 270-odd posts here is, please enlighten me.

And I honestly don't think people try to "scare" people on Internet auto racing chat forums like it's Halloween or something...well, guess it pretty nearly IS Halloween.

I was about to ask him for links to the stories he mentioned because I hadn't read 'em and couldn't find 'em. I guess I'll ask now.

[monaroCountry]

the riduculous situation of having a car with a loose wing travel so far and not get black flagged ; the centre nut coming off a wheel. Roberto Moreno who was a guest commentator here, seemed to indicate this was a regular occurence in Champcar.

Things like these happen in a race.....However if its a common occurace then they really do need to shape up. I found the wing problem truely unbelievable, it was obvious a couple of laps back that the wing was moving around/flexing/and not aligned. It was a safety issue (a big one), they should have blacked flaged the car within a lap.

[The Snout]

The contract runs through 2008, so Cochrane can pretty much promise anything he wants, earliest he would have to deliver would be 2009. I'd be wary of him though, he promised V8's in China once already and failed to deliver, so as expected people will take any talk of $8M with a grain of salt considering his track record on previous promises.

[Robert Ryan]

Indycool there is NO agenda. Falcadore and Monarocountry criticise V8Supercar at a drop of a hat.
I know it Champcar is rebuilding, but honestly it needs some healthy criticism to get it on track. V8Supercar has a STAGGERING amount, it has thrived because of it.
These are some more criticisms, the most infamous is the Crikey one.
http://www.crikey.com.au/columnists/...8/26-0005.html
Then they evened this up with a shot at AVESCO and the Queensland Govt.
http://www.crikey.com.au/columnists/...0/22-0004.html
The Age
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=ca...e.com.au&hl=en

[astinus4]

Well I for one had a great time at the track, and from what I saw most of the other people there did as well.

I spent quite a few laps near the fence near the bartercard esses, and it was hard not to notice the huge grins on people's faces as the champ cars roared up the back straight, braked and down shifted, then accelerated away again. I overheard one guy standing next to me talking to someone on his mobile : "Mate these things absolutely s**t all over the V8s. The speed and noise is just incredible. You really need to come down next year".

I then spent the final laps at the ANA hotel corner, and again everyone there appeared to be enjoying the action. I think the quality of the on track commentary (Grant Boyden and Craig Denyer?) played a large in that. They were knowledgeable, enthusiastic and kept everyone upto speed on what was happening in the race at all times. I overheard another conversation a couple of guys had just after poor Carpentier's accident : "It'll be a pity if they finish under the yellow flag. It's been an engrossing race up till now."

I realise that my own experiences aren't necessarily a reflection of everyone else's, but I was still amazed by the level of negativity I read in this thread about the race. It just seemed out of touch with the positive vibe I got walking around the circuit.

I don't doubt that were many people there mainly for the v8s, but there was hardly a mass exodus from the circuit prior to the Indy 300, and the v8 people who stayed (the people wearing the Holden/Ford shirts and caps etc) appeared to be enjoying the champ cars as much as anyone.

[The Snout]

Interesting. Paul Gover, who wrote this article that is the subject of this thread, has received the AVESCO Media Award previously and writes articles for the V8 Supercar V8X Magazine. Well, as CSI would say, we have motive Grissom.

So lets recap. Paul Gover, who receives AVESCO Media Awards from Tony Cochrane, and earns his dollars by writing for amongst other rags V8X magazine, which is a publication specializing in the V8 Supercar Series, writes an article damming the CCWS and includes in the article comments from Tony Cochrane about how the Gold Coast would be better off with V8 Supercars.

So how we doing on the impartiality front so far ?

[Hazza]

I think that the V8s and the Champcars are a synergy. Nuff said realy.

[Snrub]

Indycool, I strongly disagree that JPM was a substantial name when he came over. Amoung hardcore CART fans there was a bit of buzz, but not a ton. One of the critisms about him at the time was that no one had heard of him. Most North Americans have little/no clue regarding F3000, myself included. JPM was not in F1, Frank gave Ganassi his left overs just like with Bruno and I think (can't remember) Minassian.

Indy success automatically adds to someone's CV, it's more tradition than anything else. Do Ausis know Bruno because he grabbed an Indy pole? That's simply absurd. CART was considered to have "name power" when the only Indy winner was Al Jr. and he wasn't a threat. Andretti was name power despite his F1 humilation and lack of Indy success. While the Indy win is always mentioned as part of a CV, it's more tradition than true modern day significance. Even the most ardent Indy fan must conceed that. If that was true the article's contention that PT is a has been would be false.

Regarding Janis, I don't think most CC fans knew much about him, and that's clearly the worst possible example to bring up regarding series strength. Would it be any better if F1 alumni Mazzacane was still in the field? Does that mean that F1 is a poor series because Mazzacane participated in it? The series has ~13-14 truely quality drivers. Nelson, Gonzalez and Lavin, a few of the drivers not included in that list are starting to show some ability. I'm not suggesting that they're ever going to be front runners, but perhaps in time they can be reasonable middle runners. I'm not suggesting they necessarly should be in the series, but with experience they might be reasonable additions.

[thunder road]

the snout; your on the money !!,your on the money!!,this is from a guy ,who at a SAAB ,new car launch at the SAAB factory, in SAABland, asked ,at Q and A time, regarding thier new model release,"how many 'pop'rivits are in a SAAB jet fighter"??????,stunned silence!!

[The Snout]

Originally posted by thunder road
the snout; your on the money !!,your on the money!!,this is from a guy ,who at a SAAB ,new car launch at the SAAB factory, in SAABland, asked ,at Q and A time, regarding thier new model release,"how many 'pop'rivits are in a SAAB jet fighter"??????,stunned silence!!

He seems to write quicker than he thinks.

As I said in the letters to the editor, the only thing missing from the article were the words 'Paid Advertisement' underneath it.

[Hazza]

Originally posted by Snrub
Indycool, I strongly disagree that JPM was a substantial name when he came over. Amoung hardcore CART fans there was a bit of buzz, but not a ton. One of the critisms about him at the time was that no one had heard of him. Most North Americans have little/no clue regarding F3000, myself included. JPM was not in F1, Frank gave Ganassi his left overs just like with Bruno and I think (can't remember) Minassian.

Just to clear this up, I think Montoya had shown speed and he was sent to America in trade for Zanardi. The problem was that Frank doesn't like having 2 rookies in a team, so He had Zanardi and Ralf, when Zanardi underperformed (As Monster was still under Ganassi contract) he got in Button for the gig for a year and then got Monster back in the FW.

But was looking at the grid the otherday, and it is no worse than any other Series at the moment, just like the IRL you have your "Cream" and the you have the Milk, the ratio for most series is 2/3rds to one third.

The real problem, in my own humble, un-educated opinion is that Open Wheel racing in America needs one series that young drivers want to get into. At the moment they come up through the ranks and then go, well, I could bust my guts and get into Champcars (which face it, might not even be around in 10 years) or I could go earn a truck full of money racing infront of packed grandstands in NASCAR (while becoming a national hero). Its sort of like why there havn't been many Australian F1 drivers recently.

Ps: Don't argue with Snrub about field strenghts in past seasons, been there, done that. He'll win.

[LordClyde]

The problem with AUSTRALIA ,is everything revolves around racecars with a roof, openwheelers in CAMS & the promoters eyes are just there to fill the program ,this being both CHAMPCARS & F1. People outside the australian continent do not realise australia that it is 6 seperate countries/states if you like, federated in 1901 ,& have never stopped fitting each other since, politically & economically, hence the jelousy about sporting evevents between states . Bring on openwheeler racing any time....

[MCWB]

Originally posted by indycool
MCWB, I disagree with your point about tourism connected with races at tracks in the U.S. The Monterey peninsula, where Laguna Seca is located, is one of the hottest vacation spots in California. The economic impact of a race at Road America in Wisconsin is extremely significant to a cluster of small towns there. Queensland apparently can pay outlandish dollars to play. Not the case in Monterey or Elkhart Lake, or even reasonable.

That's kind of what I was getting at though. Queensland doesn't mind forking out big bucks for the race because they know it's worth a shedload of tourists/money to them. If Elkhart Late etc can't justify coughing up the same kind of money, then surely the race itself can't be generating the same scale of tourists/economic benefits to the region as the Surfers event does? Haven't Road America and Laguna events been poorly attended in the recent past? Interested in your thoughts, clearly I'm no expert on the U.S. situation from over here.

The Snout: excellent analysis, on the money!

[monaroCountry]

Qld needs Indy so that it could show off against the other states. Melb has F1, adel has its V8, and NSW has Bathurst.

[monaroCountry]

Considering the Beattie Government pumps something like upwards of $24 million into Queensland’s biggest annual sporting event and AVESCO was probably only getting around $500,000 for its v8 Super Cars, while the failing CART gets almost $12 million for its race - guess who was being short changed?

From the slice I tend to agree with Cochrane. $500,000 for their involvement is a disgrace, especially when their race went on for longer.

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by MCWB
And pehaps downforce, turbos, horsepower... The harder the cars are to drive the better the spectacle IMHO.

And those downforce, turbos, horsepower, not to mention a more intricate and technically adjustable car is purchased with that budget. If the money wasn't there, neither would be those techincal luxuries.

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by mountainstar
A Perth race would be awesome.

If you'll trade it for Rally Australia, I'd be ecstatic.

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by Robert Ryan

Can anyone give me a background of the Czech driver from the top of their head?
On related thread about David Besnard
someone from the UK said they did know anything about him.

Was that a challenge

Seriously, Jaroslav Janis has hit a career plateau after the last few years but he does have a future as a pay driver...

He was recently given a shot at DTM a tad less funded than Gary Paffett had the year before, but Paffett was able to seize his opportunity where Janis was not.

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by Robert Ryan
Indycool there is NO agenda. Falcadore and Monarocountry criticise V8Supercar at a drop of a hat.

Robert: Criticise at the drop of the hat? Why would i have co-created VESRIX if I didn't like the category?

I disagree with the agendas of those who run and promote the category. If my critcisms are not valid then I can quickly rely on those here to point it out. However if everyone swallowed what the disagreed on, be a boring old list wouldn't it?

[monaroCountry]

I like motorsport. Recent articles have convinced me of TCs arguements.

[indycool]

First, Snrub, I agree with you. Montoya was not a substantial name when he came over. A CART championship and a "500" win made him a name (percentgae of each du jour). Same with Villeneuve a few years earlier and he was North American. Neither stayed in the U.S. long enough to really develop much of a following here.

MCWB, will answer the best I can. Unlike the Surfers situation regarding tourism, Monterey and particularly Elkhart Lake are essentially rural. They are NOT a long way from population centers but they're not the TYPE of tourist spot that draws people to the locale with a race being secondary to an event. They are permanent road courses. They are private enterprises. They can't move their location. They have little leverage for money from the states of California and Wisconsin (like Queensland) to stage a race on their own private turf.

[BootsOntheSide]

Just because soemone writes for a V8 magazine doesn't mean they aren't entitled to an opinion on ChampCars. There's nothign to say that the article was bought or intentionally biased. Don't forget that both CART and IRL's official websites have written exaggerated articles about their own championships.

On the subject of these 2 American races, the fact that they're permenant road courses is the key factor in my book. They've bene staging races long ebfore anyone realised that such a thing could be good for the economy, and mainly attract racing fans rather than event fans - Surfer's probably gets a mixture of the two.

[EGG]

If you'll trade it for Rally Australia, I'd be ecstatic.

Deal.

One of those crikey articles mentioned the IRL maybe taking over(this in late 2003) at Indy. Aside from the fact that I don't think they get out much, don't they only race on ovals?