HANS Device

[ss_collins]

I guess the sudden deceleration of the neck....

Nope it is not april the first that exerpt was part of VERY long but very good letter sent to the mag giving an opinion or similar on just about every article we had run since March - though those were the only thoughts expressed about HANS...

[ss_collins]

I guess the sudden deceleration of the neck....

Nope it is not april the first that exerpt was part of VERY long but very good letter sent to the mag giving an opinion or similar on just about every article we had run since March - though those were the only thoughts expressed about HANS...

[Tim Falce]

Eyes can be popped back in, heads can't just be popped back on

[ss_collins]

which is totally beside the point falcemob dear chap and a bit of a misleading statement falce. I feel.

What I would really like to see is every major shunt analysed for a couple of months - I think a lot of the drivers 'saved' by hans woul actually have been ok without it - as has been said elsewhere its seems that more drivers are saved by the device thand were killed by the injury it no doubt prevents.

Also this is about the potential risks that come with hans, something that perhaps is not advertised. I personally will not wear one because I don't think the cost is justified (please no daft comments on what price your neck etc...), I'm far from convinced about the true safety value of the device, and I also belive that it is totally incompatible with the type of motorsport I do...

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

which is totally beside the point falcemob dear chap and a bit of a misleading statement falce. I feel............

..

Not beside the point and not misleading.......it was a perfectly valid statement. I neither pro nor con for thses devices, just trying to find out as much as possible, but if you decelerate so quickly that your eyes pop out then you could have sustained severe neck injury without the HANS.
On the "causing injury" bit, I believe it was said that the incidence of severe concusion has gone up since they have been used in F1.
Safety is atrade off to a certain extent so you may swap a severe injury for a less severe by using one device or another.

[Red Baron]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I also belive that it is totally incompatible with the type of motorsport I do...

Can't say I've ever been rallying, but don't berate me just yet.......

After reading this thread I thought I'd do a bit more research re HANS in rallying and I just read an article that quoted Petter Solberg (sorry, didn't note down article details) and he said ....

"I'm convinced rally drivers will benefit as much from the system as racing drivers have already. We've made quite a lot of modifications to make it suitable for off-road use and it is comfortable now."

To be fair, Jan Tomek does not sound so keen as he said that he needs to be able to read his pace notes, but if you look at the official HANS web site it says that it is normal to be able to put your chin to your chest when wearing the device. I'm not sure where Jan keeps his notes !!!!

I do agree with you in that the decision re cost vs effectiveness is a personal one though. As you've probably gathered, if I ever get round to racing (and yes, I do have a licence) I know I'd include a HANs in my list of things to buy. I also like to think that DarrellB will do the same before he gets behind the wheel cos I'd feel a lot happier knowing that the ones I love were doing all they could to protect themselves irrespective of the cost.

Rosie

[JustinDawkins]

Sam/Chezza - Surely the same effect would take place if you hit your head on the steering wheel with a full face helmet? In fact the decleration would be way more IMO

[chezza]

less actually - you neck muscles would decelerate you before you hit the wheel - more gradual decel than hans, plus the helmet absorbs impact and reduces the torque spike, the tethers on hns could produce very harsh torque spike - hence the increase in brain injury (concussion or worse)

[Fan]

Originally Posted by chezza

less actually - you neck muscles would decelerate you before you hit the wheel - more gradual decel than hans, plus the helmet absorbs impact and reduces the torque spike, the tethers on hns could produce very harsh torque spike - hence the increase in brain injury (concussion or worse)

Tell that to Mika Hakkinen

[chezza]

and what would have happened with an increased torque spike? you wouldn't be telling him anything.

[1200Datto27]

As the HANS device is designed to move with your body in a crash and keep your head from continuing it's momentum once the belts take up, I can't see how there could be a larger torque spike applied to the head, than if your head was not controlled and either hyperextended, or hitthe dash, wheel, etc.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by chezza

less actually - you neck muscles would decelerate you before you hit the wheel - more gradual decel than hans, plus the helmet absorbs impact and reduces the torque spike, the tethers on hns could produce very harsh torque spike - hence the increase in brain injury (concussion or worse)

Do you have any data to back this up?


I seem to remember that NASCAR drivers placed their steering wheels so that their heads hit them in the event of a frontal crash. The theory being that the wheel would help prevent hyperextension of the neck and BSF. As they now use HANS, I suspect that there must be some convicing evidence of benefit.

The eyeball tale is of concern.
I think that full face helmets should be mandated with HANS in case someone's false teeth fly out and sever the femoral artery

[Cambo]

I think it was a NASCAR initiative for the quick release system. I think it detaches your helmet from the devise at the anchors by pulling on two cords. I heard some where that this could have helped Bread Jones in his upside down incidents where his HANS made it very difficult to get out on his own.

[Wingman]

Originally Posted by johnw

As I have no way of knowing how to contact him, Perhaps you could enlighten us?


Quick release straps exist now. Inertia reels an interesting idea. However all might be solved by "custom fitting".

Brad Jones was involved in two rollovers in the last month. In both cases he couldn't get himself out of the car. He had to wait until marshalls and another driver got to him. He claimed he was not happy with the HANS, and would have been in trouble if a fire had started.

[Red Baron]

Originally Posted by chezza

less actually - you neck muscles would decelerate you before you hit the wheel - more gradual decel than hans, plus the helmet absorbs impact and reduces the torque spike, the tethers on hns could produce very harsh torque spike - hence the increase in brain injury (concussion or worse)

Maybe it's because it's early in the morning (well, early enough), but I just can't get my head around this scenario. I know that some drivers (I'm thinking single seater drivers) do work on their neck muscles to strengthen them, but relying on them being strong enough to decelerate you enough to stop you hitting the wheel in a big impact seems risky.

If you read the HANS Device owners manual (available on www.hansdevice.com) they discuss the possiblity of the HANS causing the head to stop too quickly in an accident (see page 13) and it seems that this is not the case. I would assume that such a statement is the result of the research and tests that the HANS developers have conducted whilst designing the product and is therefore a reliable source.

Before you say that they are only highlighting the good points of HANS, they do go on to refer to the fact that some drivers have experienced discomfort at the front of their heads following a big hit with HANS (someone referred to this being the case in F1 earlier in this thread) but that medical opinion is that this is minor relative to what might have happened if they were not wearing the device.

With regard to the Brad Jones scenario, I think Cambo is right, the Quick Disconnect tethers have been designed especially for such cases.

Rosie

[Cougar]

Might be slightly off topicish... but in a series such as F1 where you are required to use HANS why do they not build the device into the car?

Am I simplifying it too much by saying all you need is two seatbelt type devices (which allow free movement when not crashing) attached from the car which clip onto your helmet. And you could have a quick release clip on the top of your helmet.

[johnw]

Cougar
It's the relative position of your head and body which needs to be maintained.
Have a look at the HANS website to see the crash test pics for explanation.
Seatbelts strech and if the head was restrained separately from the body, severe injury could occur.

[chezza]

Its not about building strength up in your neck, its about the natural ability/reaction that the neck has. The neck muscles will naturally decelerate the head as they reach the end of their length. However with hans this deceleration will be much quicker as the tethers snap taught.

I don't know if that would work coogz...I have seen drivers that have had enough trouble remembering to undo their seatbelts when they try to get out of the car and also those who forget to unplug radios and that due to the disorientation caused by the accident. Being attached to the car in another way could just add to the confusion and be dangerous in fires and that.

[Red Baron]

Ah, well in that case I can see your concern, although I disagree. Once the neck muscles reach the end of their length, if the head carries on moving forward at any pace you are moving towards certain muscle strain and bsf territory.

The function of the tethers is to bear the load and pull the device along with the head and helmet so that the head is restrained relative to the torso. Although the tethers do bear the load I get the impression that the snapping action is not as extreme as you might think. HANS also recommend that the tethers are replaced after a big hit so I'd imagine that there is some element of 'give' in them, same as there is with seatbelts.

This is just my interpretation of the information supplied on the HANS web site though.

Rosie

[johnw]

Chezza
We haven't met, but unless you have a neck like Mike Tyson, I have to believe that the HANS tethers would do a better job of restraining your head than your neck muscles.
They are made from the same type of material as seat belts, so will give and stretch, hence the need to replace them after a shunt, as is recommended for seatbelts.

[ss_collins]

It should be noted that the Hans websites primary function is to sell Hans. I want to see more research into Hans and the various other safety solutions proposed - that applies real world accidents and both the ositive and negative results.

Now a question to those who use Hans, what happens if the floorpan of the car deforms on impact and the seat moves? the belts also move but at a sideways angle - does this angle have any effect on the device - does it twist on the shoulders?

[johnw]

Sam
I believe that there has been more research on Hans than any other safety system including racing harnesses and seats.
I agree that more research is necessary, and I also believe that the results of MSA investigations into racing accidents should be made public. We all need to learn more.

[ss_collins]

agreed john - agreed

interestin point - to be able to apply for safety research funding from the FIA you first have to join the FIA safety institute which costs around £10,000.

[chezza]

Nope no neck like mike tyson and I'm a marshal and not a driver. I don't doubt that HANS would hold my head in place better than my neck muscles, its the result of the stop I'm thinking about at the moment.

Ouch thats one heck of a lot of money for be able to get some money to be able to do some research!

[johnw]

I'm trying to find £ 20,000 to fund some research on barrier safety which would benefit us all, HANS and non-HANS wearers.

Having a think about the floorpan deformation, but in recent history, more seats have come adrift, which is a more immediate concern.

I'll pm you with some info Sam, but probably not until tomorrow.