best endurance racing series

[Tim Northcutt]

I am saying that the relatives costs to compete are about the same in ALMS as they are in GARRA....Just ask Alex Job...or read his interview on dailysportscar.com....

But to keep this in perspective, F-1 races in a different country for every single event, and they compete on five continents.....add their driver salaries, the costs to compete given their rules, plus those items mentioned by TWK...you're using an F-1 example and trying to apply it to ALMS, just because a few teams that attend make a 3-4 week trip to France in June...

You are comparing apples to oranges...

Please PM me or e-mail to me on this subject if you wish...but an LMP1 program can be done for less than you are stating...I've researched it, and I have talked to people about it who would know...

[Garp]

OK, comparing SCGT racing with F1, makes no sence what so ever.

But if it's true that Grand AM is as costley as LMP1, that would mean a rediculous high pricetag for a silhouette cup. It would be better to compare it with DTM than with any other.

My point about costs where made on the idea that it should be as "cheap" as GT2 racing.

But ok, cost estimates for a team tires and transport, should be possible for under $ 500 k. All the rest should be car and developement. You can make that as costley as you like.

[cybersdorf]

Ah yes, we are back at "GA vs. ALMS", starring the usual suspects.

Originally Posted by Seoigh

There is simply not enough competition in ALMS.

True.

...the Grand Am DP formula... (with sound engineering and solid powertrains)...

The spec component failures at the Rolex 24 were nothing short of embarrassing.

But that's not the point!

All ideology aside, both GA and ALMS play second fiddle (or rather, second and third, respectively - you sort out which plays which) to championships such as Belcar and VLN. That's where proper endurance racing happens, not potentially but in fact, on the track. Maybe other championships should take a leaf or two out of their books.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

All ideology aside, both GA and ALMS play second fiddle (or rather, second and third, respectively - you sort out which plays which) to championships such as Belcar and VLN. That's where proper endurance racing happens, not potentially but in fact, on the track. Maybe other championships should take a leaf or two out of their books.

Cybersdorf, can you outline what makes Belcar or VLN a success? I am not familiar at all with either, except both seem to have large fields.

robert

[cybersdorf]

Colourful, competitive fields; competitor quantity & quality; broad fan base; and apparently, it's still affordable.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

Colourful, competitive fields; competitor quantity & quality; broad fan base; and apparently, it's still affordable.

Which then sounds a lot like the first several years of IMSA, when you had Porsche RSR's and factory BMW CSL's, and Greenwood Corvettes, and then a couple of Lotus Europas, various Datsun Z's, Alfa's, etc. Sure, you had a very good idea of who was going to win, but it was fun to watch the varied field stream past.

robert

[TWK]

Ideology, Cybersdorf? What ideology? What I saw were cost comparisons.

[Adam43]

The cost of a serious does not directly effect whether it is the "best endurance racing series". It may effect the number of compeititors, but overall do costs make a difference to how you watch a series? Although I guess you can argue that a more expensive car is generally more interesting. So I guess what I am saying is that a series isn´t better or worse because it took $100m instead of $400m to get to the track. It is what happens on track that matters. Although I see the secondary point that too much expense stops some getting to the track (although there have been plenty of poor cheap championships!).

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Garp

$4 million US for a season? That's an awefull lot.

DP car $500k = say $200k a year
$1.5 million staff, spares, and support equipment Don't think so
Staff is about $200k a year
spares is about $200k a year
support equipment is about $50k a year
participation in the series, (tickets, tyres, fuel) is about $200k a year
Plus $150k a year, transport and other stuff.

That's about $ 1 million US for a season, and i bet i can arrange it for halve the money. including 3 proffesional drivers.

Wheres the $ 3 million,

$4 million is LMP1 budget, i bet Dyson would be very happy to spend $4 million a year.

Ask Ganassi where the $3 mil is, the 4 mil is what they spend per car.

Dyson was spending $4 mil for two cars.

You can run most LMP1 programs for $2 mil, per car, less cost of car.

[Tim Northcutt]

Ganassi has been known to spend LOTS of money in every form of racing he has ever competed in...

In a headily restricted series, finding ways to get an edge in the elements that you can tinker with is where the money goes....whether it is suspension settings, shocks, or other areas that they are allowed to mess with....and in order to do that, you have to test, and test, and test...

also, keep in mind that Ganassi also runs qualifying motors and probably does a ton of dyno work to get the most out of his Lexus power...

The rumor in my hometown it that his IRL program has done a ton of wind tunnel testing to find any edge he could get.....now that he has Honda power, like everyone else in that Series, his cars ran 1-2 at the Series-wide test at Phoenix in late January...

Ganassi will spend what it takes to win and to get the most out of his cars within the rules...which raises the bar, and the budgets, for anyone else who wants to be competitive against him...

[JAG]

Budgets are limitless in any series, regardless of whether it's spec or not.

Teams at the height of the BTCC in the mid 1990s were spending £6m+, thats over $10m.

These were 2l sedans with strict tech limits and engines limited to 8500rpm!

Teams were spending hundreds of thousands fine tuning their tiny front and rear wing/splitter set-up, all for the sake of a tenth or two on the track.

As competition increases in GA it pays dividends to test and fine tune, all of which costs big bucks.

In the ALMS there is a window of opportunity in LMP1. A team like Dyson can pick up a Lola P1 and realistically challenge for the championship. This may not be the case in a few years time if we see 2 or 3 factory teams in P1. But then again if the competition increased Dysons goals would readjust to account for the increased competition.

The issue with GA is that it is claimed every DP has an equal chance of success, which is not the case. There's a pecking order just like every other competitive series.

[Bentley03]

Forgive my ignorance (I don't really follow Garra), but with all this talk of millions spent on fine tuning these DP's to gain a small advantage, AJR appeared to be in a completely different performance league from the other (and I assume bigger budgeted) teams at the Rolex 24. Why/how?

[The Badger]

I got a question ?

Can somebody please explain how exactly a low tech tube frame DP can cost as much as a Carbon Fibre LMP1 to run ? This was said a few posts back .....

If the chassis is more expensive to run , how so ?

DP is a national series , albeit a vast country . They have to travel no more than a European team doing Lms , Fia Gt .

And , there is obviously more interest in sportscars on the euro side of the Atlantic , as is proven by the fact that nobody seems to want to run a DBR9 .... for that matter nobody raced a Corvette (PCR , 3 races) or a Viper when it was a compettive car or an Zytek 04S ?

And nobody is building a LMP1 or LMP2 car stateside either , lots of talk but not a lot of action ..... not a lot of interest on that side of the Atlantic if you ask me ..... imo .

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by The Badger

And , there is obviously more interest in sportscars on the euro side of the Atlantic , as is proven by the fact that nobody seems to want to run a DBR9 .... for that matter nobody raced a Corvette (PCR , 3 races) or a Viper when it was a compettive car or an Zytek 04S ?

And nobody is building a LMP1 or LMP2 car stateside either , lots of talk but not a lot of action ..... not a lot of interest on that side of the Atlantic if you ask me ..... imo .

The cost of the Aston, to run for a class victory is one aspect that I felt put people off, that and Richards going on about the car not being competitive against the Corvettes on America's bumpy tracks.

Apparently Team Titan is pretty far along on their car, as one thing I read was they even had hopes for Sebring, but that wasn't realistic I guess (there is almost more secrecy with that project then with the R10).

What nobody is mentioning with regard to the Ganassi budget is the chunk of it that goes for catering and entertainment, which is significant.

What I don't see in the US is people buying old DTM cars to run in endurance (yes, I know, no series to run them in) or building something like the Alzen's did with the Porsche Alien, or the various smaller class cars you see at something like the Nurburgring 24 hour race. I think some of the enthusiasm is gone without some of that innovation, daring, or romance of the sport.


robert

[JAG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I got a question ?

Can somebody please explain how exactly a low tech tube frame DP can cost as much as a Carbon Fibre LMP1 to run ? This was said a few posts back .....

If the chassis is more expensive to run , how so ?

.

You have guys running modern F1 cars in national series (EuroBoss), but budgets will be a fraction of many single seater teams in junior formulas.

Just because there are fewer areas to tweak and modify on a DP doesn't mean you don't test as much as an ALMS P1 team. You're simply focusing all of your resources improving fewer areas of the car.

[Asa]

Just read Patrick Head's interview in Autosport, he claimed that there is no way you can limit budgets in motorsport (or any sport for that matter).

The thing is, you have an aim, to win the championship, therefore you will always find ways to do it. Even if you limit technologies to the point that absolutely nothing can be changed, you can still spend your millions on a driver like Michael Schumacher or Fernando Alonso.

A top level soccer club is not cheap to run for this very reason, despite there being relatively few technologies in the sport: salaries and fees.

So long that there is no budget cap there will always be people trying to out-spend others. Look at Chelsea in soccer and Red Bull in motorsports.

[The Badger]

For Jag

Ah ..... but your initial layout is not as much for a tube frame than as for a carbon fibre tub , or the fact that a damaged carbon fibre tub is a very costly item to repair , if indeed it can be repaired at all . Not so with a tube frame . Whats carbon fibre on Dp , body panels ? Or even that there are about ten or more of each successful chassis , which does make a differance in production costs .

Control tyres also contribute to cheaper running . What about DP mechanical gear , is that anyway controled as well ?

How can Gannassi spend that with a factory engine deal behind him ..... there must be no hope for those trying to do it on a couple mill !!! I'd go Alms for that kinda wedge .

I just cant see 4 mill as an honest cost to run a Dp or two !

As Dodge19 said ..... there is a lot of add ons as well .

imo