Chevron B48

[driftwood]

i will ask him

[Chris Townsend]

Ago did have a B40
He spent the winter of 77/78 flogging round in one. According to MN it was the ex Ardmore car [chassis 01 then] and they even reproduce a picture of it in Voxson livery.

The confusion of the B47/49 in the Brown car is interesting.
The Devaney B47 was chassis 08. The number and description as his car is given in a Chevron ad A/S 15.11.79 p. 59. I understand this to be the Griffiths car of recent years in sprinting and h/c.
49-79-02 is an interesting proposition because the number does not appear on the Chevron build record I was sent by Tim Colman. Only 1 and 4 do.
1 Andy Jeffrey, 4 Graeme Lawrence. However, we know 5 exists and did so in period. [Tommy Phillips]
After Jeffrey stuffs 01 rather badly he appears in what AS notes is a new car on loan from Chevron, and then a race later in what AS calls his original car repaired.
01 can be traced to Stu Lawson in early 1980 and I'm told by Tim Colman that this was Peter Oxley's car in 1985 [so not the Brown/Knapman car]
Chevron still have an old B49 that they wheel out for Masanori Sekiva in 1982 until the B56 is ready. Can't be 01, 04 [in NZ], 05 [in Seattle] so perhaps there really was a 49-79-02 which got stuck into the Devaney car.
Brown doesn't appear until Sept 82 [AS 16.9.82 p. 30] which is after Sekiva has finished with a B49.

£10 an hour? I'd want a sight more than that! This is for fun and relaxation. And doing Ralt RT4 histories really is like a giant form of Suduko.

Chris

[driftwood]

Knapman told me he had f3 B47 car dressed up as f2 car on the hills

£10 per hour was a figure of speech- anyway what overheads do u have? office space secretary electricty phnoe line rental etc??

if yr doing it for "fun" and some one wants to pay u a fee of say £10-15 per hour i would have thought that as a bonus
if some paid me £30 to drive their race car i would think i was in heaven instead it costs me £1000 to do a race!!
sominks wrong somewhere!

[allenbrown]

Chris

Is it a build record you have or a sales record? Is it possible B49-79-02 was built but not sold?

And isn't it a remarkable coincidence that Devaney drove both B47-79-08 and B48-79-08. They're not the same car are they? I can't see how they can be but with so many dodgy things going on at Chevron 1979/80 I had to ask.

Drifty - my overheads are a wife and two children!

Allen

[driftwood]

would it be fair to say the b47 8 9 monocoques are the same so perhaps the engine gbox corners could be swapped around swiftely hence the same chassis tag on a tub enetered in different races
i cant see the same driver running the same serial no car from 2 different models what are the odds of that 1 in 20 perhaps

allen yr overeads can be reduced in 1 swoop
as a well known race driver told my father 20 years ago he got rid of his mortgage and wife in the same day -its called a divorce!!
The children can sweep the chimney`s for their keep

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Ago did have a B40
He spent the winter of 77/78 flogging round in one. According to MN it was the ex Ardmore car [chassis 01 then] and they even reproduce a picture of it in Voxson livery.

Where was he racing this Chris? Any idea what became of it after he got his B42? Barton by any chance?

For the record, Ken Brill's ex-Ago car is given by Autosport as B42-14 and unless Marcus took that number out of an old notebook for his report and was actually looking at a plate-less B40 (unlikely), that's a solid identification. So the Fisher car was almost certainly B42-14, not B40-01.

And yes, I know this post is now on the wrong thread.

Allen

[Dan Rear]

Allen, don't think Ago ever raced the B40, testing only I suspect. Barton had his 'mystery F2 car' in early 77, before Ago got the car, so can't be the same one.

My tech knowledge is zero, but surely an F3 tub couldn't have been turned into an F2 car ??

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Did Andy B use a B40 for a time in 1978, and destroy it too, or am I dreaming things?? If he did, was it the one Harper got later, ie -08 ?

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Andy bought a B40 in time for the 1978 Bank Holiday Monday Croft meeting (see Autosport 8 June 1978 p51 and p57) but put it over the bank in practice. He never raced it again so presumably it was too bent even for Barton.

Dan, are you thinking of the mystery B35 he wrecked in 1977? I only knew about the B40 he had in 1978 because of you!

If B40-77-01 went to Ago after Ardmore for 77/78 testing, it's still in play as a possibility for Barton's short-lived car in the spring of 1978.

Allen

[driftwood]

go look at any march f1 f5000 f2 f3 71-74 cars all same s=tubs but have different thickness bulkheads
ralts rt1 f2 f3 atalantic /super vee
rt3/5 tubs the same
would not surprise me if chevron f2 f3 was same tub

[Chris Townsend]

I'd agree with Drifty about the F3 and Atlantic tubs. Not so sure about F2 because of the extra tank capacity.
B48 prototype has a new tub I'd guess, because this was the tryout for the first ground effect car, so I presume they'd do something different to the B42, I've seen a photo of it with Patrese in, and it has B48 bodywork but probably still has 42 suspension. They then put a new tub in it in April/May.

I don't think that this would have been the F3 tub at that stage because the F3 drivers were still attempting to make the B47 work. 47-08 seems to survive as an entity because David Warner rents it for the British GP and Martin McCarthy for the TV race at Thruxton at season end.

Regarding the B49. I think 49-02 was built, intended for Opert along with 03 , and both were cancelled. 02 stays at Chevron until 1982. 03 don't know. Gaps in the Chevron number record sometimes indicate replacements for existing car, others are back-door jobs.

Unfortunately you do get drivers with the same chassis no on different models - DICK B****Y BARKER for one; Carl Liebich has Lola T460-HU18 from new and then goes and buys T360-HU18 second hand afterwards.

Ago did only test the B40 and did have a real B42. The B40 ref is MN 2.3.78 p.14

[Dan Rear]

dw, fair enough, I bow to your far superior knowledge here (but can't you brush up your typing skills!!!). Allen, sorry I forgot the Barton B40 from early 78.

Chris, why do we know there were at least 5 B49s? 1, perhaps 2 for Jeffrey, one for Opert/Tolama, one for Lawrence, what is the Tommy Phillips one? And what about the Irish B53, that came out in 1981, can't recall the driver now, was this based on a spare B49 tub ???

This is getting good again, my hourly rate's going up ...!!

[Chris Townsend]

B49s
What Tim told me was in the record was
01 Jeffrey [independently observed early season]
04 Lawrence [confirmed by Dave McKinney]
05 Phillips [confirmed in the recent ad of this car]

Why the gap?
We know that there is an extra car in there as Jeffrey's replacement.
Opert never took a B49 in the end - ran B45 and B39 plus March in 1979.
Think we need to look to NW sprinters and h/c for the answer... I seem to recall a B49 for sale in Lancs in 1980/1 that couldn't be placed without an extra car existing, since 01, 04 and 05 were accounted for and one other car was still at works.

Chris

PS This is now keeping me from writing - only 180 words so far today and my target is 1000

[Dan Rear]

As this is a, great, revival of an old thread, did we ever discuss B47s much? I'm intrigued by Devaney in -08 (B47 that is, not B48). Given that he was announced as the first McMahon Team driver that year, and pictured in a car quite early in 79, I assumed that car would have been -01, or -02, NOT -08. I wonder if the latter is the revised car he drove from about May onwards, with the wide nose, and other mods. That would seem logical, so I wonder what the others were numbered.

IIRC there were a total of 3 McMahon cars, or 4 with the -08 I surmised above, + the Roe car, ie 5. From memory we were told KWS had 3 cars too, also John Lewis had one later that year. So perhaps 9, the bulk UK based, and which could well have morphed into 'B49' Atlantic engined climbers later on.

[Chris Townsend]

B47s
McMahon 3 cars for Jordan, Johansson and Devaney [and maybe 03 originally for Devaney]
Michael Roe
Three KWS
One Trivatello in Italy for Gianluca Messini (but by 1982 there are two of these popular beasts running in Italy!)

The John Lewis car was quite possibly built outside the works run as Lewis often finished his cars after hours at the Chevron factory where he worked.
His B34 is a problem for me...

[allenbrown]

Get anywhere near 1000 yesterday?

[driftwood]

1 what are you writing Chris?
2 sue griffeths has chevron b47 cum 49 for sale Jordan`s f3 chassis with 2litre millington in it
3 i do accept that some guys will get 2 or 3 cars that have same serial no on different models usually eiether collectors seeking chassi no 1 or works drivers getting the 1st cars each season but its rare to get high numbers unless you have made it a mission
4 Dan "brushing up on typing skills" is a possibility but like Bob Geldofs dishevelled look or Merzarios cowboy hat ths could be my trade mark (maybe i should copyright it? ) however i cant type and read screen at the same time its the same as i watch the urinal so i dont get it on my shoe by looking elsewhere
5 fuel cells may be bigger in some chassis but often the f2 car will have extra tanks in chassis side to accomodate the longer races/greater consumption- if you consider making cars you would look at a cost saving exercise and utilising the same chassis size is a boon along with the uprights

[allenbrown]

Drifty's unique spelling is how I worked out who he was.

[allenbrown]

If an average run of production cars is, say, 8 per year then the chances of a repeat customer getting the same chassis number is simply 1 in 8. So you'd expect it to happen quite often. However, not that many customers go back for the following year's car as the difference can be quite incremental and a 'kit' would probably do the job. Also, drivers move category, change constructor and move from second-hand to new. So it's only the Bill Bracks of this world who even put themselves in that 1 in 8 situation.

Having said that, whenever I see a driver with the same number two years running, I start digging to see if it could be an updated car. I think one of Matich's McLarens was such - with the model number on the old chassis plate just overstamped. (But try telling the present-day owner that!)

Allen

[Bryan Miller]

I can only add on the March 74B and the B29 Chevron I am currently playing with the fuel tank issue with bag tanks is a non issue , they simply installed a longer/shorter bag for the Formula needed and put in a closure plate to stop it sliding forward is what seems to have happened if a shorter bag , e.g. atlantic versus F2 .

Drifty/ Kevin , don't obtain any typing skills please , I obtain much enjoyment trying to figure out what you are saying.

Chris , I know off thread , any help on The March 81A-15.?

Bryan.

[Dan Rear]

Re single chassis for different formulae, I recall Autocourse being especially dismissive of the B48 (David Hodges maybe) in their 79 F2 report. OTOH something like "...Chevron merely dolled up their existing uninspiring chassis...", implying B42 and B48 tubs were v similar.

Could this be one of the reasons the issue seems so complex 25 years or so on? And why 2 Italian 'B47s' appeared in 1982, Chris?

[allenbrown]

The Chevron book says Southgate's brief was "to produce a 'wing car' version of the B42".

[driftwood]

Bryan i agree on tank issues lola t290 has same thing add in side tank for more fuel/longer events
was "typing" australian to assist the poms for their overseas trips but im even confusing the natives!!
the more real pom beer i drink the worse i get but hey no fear of that happening down there with the cold p155 u guys have

i read my chevron book that the B42 was same tub shape as b48 with GE bodyshape "add ons" to a wing car design

the italian trivellato team had 2 cars 1 for Stohr has that been listed before?

there is a b48 roller for sale in uk i have a foto of it from owner i believe its trivellato car will look for it it may have chassis no on it or i will ask him directly
also getting new ID tag and enrolling on pitman typing class !!

[Dan Rear]

Where's evidence for 2 Trivellato cars Drifty, I'm sure only the 1 for SS. Too much beer's not good for you...

[driftwood]

Yes Dan the ugly woman at 1 pint is better looking at 5th pint!!
i saw in chevron book stohr and another driver as the trivellato reference to the 2 cars

[Dan Rear]

Further complicating things B48/49 wise, I see that Roy Baker entered his ex-Rahal B48-05(?) in an early 1980 UK Atlantic race. He later reverted it to F2-spec.