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20 May 2011, 15:49 (Ref:2883165) | #1001 | ||
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Much of this equivallence discussion is flawed, comparisons are being made with grandfathered, underdeveloped or underfunded chassis and engines. HPD's P1 was even a compromise, a development platform for the Wirth coupe, but the chassis and engine at least were developed by a factory in P2 form, before being adapted to P1. The question is not do diesels have a performance advantage, it's how large it is, and how much is down to the engine. From my non-technical point of view, based on car specs, and previous years performances, I don't have a shadow of a doubt a customer P1 like the HPD is capable of doing 3.30-3.32, that's potentially six seconds quicker than anyone went at the test day. If the diesels go quicker still, deal with them, but the ACO can't be giving huge performance breaks to petrol cars just because they didn't show their potential at a test, that's before factoring in what a factory could achieve. |
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20 May 2011, 16:23 (Ref:2883176) | #1002 | ||
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Why do you fail to see why "modern electonics" will fail to bring improvements?
How fast and what memory did your PC have 10 years ago? What's it got today? |
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20 May 2011, 16:29 (Ref:2883180) | #1003 | ||
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20 May 2011, 16:29 (Ref:2883181) | #1004 | ||
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Also, what's really unfair is where does a well healed LMP1 privateer team lay its hands on a racing diesel engine? Oh - they can't!
So not only are Pescarolo,Rebellion,Oak etc forced to use petrol engines they have to run them at a disadvantage to. Why does anyone bother! |
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20 May 2011, 16:32 (Ref:2883182) | #1005 | ||
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When in doubt? C4. |
20 May 2011, 16:41 (Ref:2883184) | #1006 | |
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Just noticed the F1 second practice results from Barcelona, there's a seven second gap between first and last, even mid-table teams are two to three seconds down.
This is a circuit half the length of Le Mans, with all teams using the same spec engines, and 2011 chassis. |
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20 May 2011, 17:39 (Ref:2883200) | #1007 | |||
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The funny thing is that the diesel technology hasn't even proved to be superior. They just utilized the immense advantage given to them so that they do their marketing routine. |
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20 May 2011, 17:40 (Ref:2883201) | #1008 | ||
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Maybe another example: Moore's Law has not changed the boiling point of water |
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20 May 2011, 17:45 (Ref:2883203) | #1009 | ||
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Diesel engine need more air than petrol engine to produce the same power |
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20 May 2011, 17:52 (Ref:2883207) | #1010 | ||
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JAG already gave the example of the AER engines. The Lehmann turbo engine produces 520 bhp according to http://www.oreca-racing.com/racing-c...facturer/lmp1/. That is without the temporal boost of the Flybrid KERS. |
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20 May 2011, 18:14 (Ref:2883212) | #1011 | |
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For the same power output diesel engines produce more torque at low revs (extremely flat torque curve) and they have a better fuel economy
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20 May 2011, 18:27 (Ref:2883217) | #1012 | ||
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I'm hoping to see petrol privateers do themselves justice, like Highcroft at Sebring, it's no suprise they were running tried and tested, factory developed, technology. A couple of teams aside, it will be 2012 before much of the grid have equipment designed to take full advantage of the regs, in addition to the required testing. |
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20 May 2011, 18:34 (Ref:2883219) | #1013 | ||
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Of course he points out that this will not put the petrol cars within 2% of the diesels, because he claims that the gap was 10 sec before the performance adjustment. Remember that Duncan Dayton predicted a gap of 6 sec for their car (see http://trussers.blogspot.com/2011/04...all-in-to.html). He also regrets that the ACO decided to make the slowest cars (i.e., petrols) faster, instead of slowing down the fastest cars (i.e., diesels). The same article says that Oak Racing will chose the combination -10 kg weight reduction/2% restrictor increase, because the 3% restrictor increase might cause reliability issues. |
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20 May 2011, 19:13 (Ref:2883228) | #1014 | |
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Pescarolo and co. go into such detail yet ignore the obvious, 3.36 is not a representative petrol time, neither is 3.30 a lap time limit, it's the average over a stint.
What a shame Highcroft won't be there to give a representative benchmark. |
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20 May 2011, 19:19 (Ref:2883230) | #1015 | |
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You really feel the need to mention Highcroft and their relative performance on every post you make?
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20 May 2011, 19:27 (Ref:2883233) | #1016 | ||||
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Quote:
I may as well say that the diesels were sandbagging at 3:26!!! Add to that the superior performance in traffic. |
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20 May 2011, 19:45 (Ref:2883238) | #1017 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by gwyllion; 20 May 2011 at 19:50. |
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20 May 2011, 19:49 (Ref:2883239) | #1018 | |
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20 May 2011, 20:33 (Ref:2883253) | #1019 | ||
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This helps explain my comments regarding petrol engines using modern electronics and lightweight materials.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...nt-than-diesel |
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20 May 2011, 21:37 (Ref:2883286) | #1020 | ||||
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Quote:
The deal was a Peugeot petrol engine. This never happened other than maybe some computer designs, on both sides of the project. |
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20 May 2011, 21:54 (Ref:2883289) | #1021 | ||
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Which materials do you mean? The current LMP engines already make extensive use of aluminium (e.g., block, head) and titanium (e.g., con rods). BTW the article you refer to lists direct fuel injection and turbochargers as important technologies to improve thermodynamic efficiency of petrol engines. In your original post you were talking about high revving normally aspirated F1 engines and I immediately suggested that a turbocharged direct injection petrol engine is the way to go |
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20 May 2011, 22:59 (Ref:2883311) | #1022 | ||
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the onset of knock the major issue with petrol engines? This can only be improved via more knock-resistant fuel mixtures. You can reduce knock electronically, but this involves changing the ignition timing, which invariably reduces the power. Obviously incremental developments on other areas to reduce losses will occur all the time, but these are equally applicable to diesel engines.
Of course this is all completely irrelevant to the sportscar debate, which is entirely related to restrictors and the torque properties of each engine. |
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20 May 2011, 23:38 (Ref:2883322) | #1023 | |
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The article also mentions "lean-burn combustion and homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI)". Those technologies help reduce emissions and fuel consumption.
I don't know if they are usefull in Le Mans where around 80% of the lap is full throttle. |
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21 May 2011, 09:25 (Ref:2883436) | #1024 | ||
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The ACO would do everyone a favour if they split LMP1 into 2 classes,namely P1D and P1P.
This would allow the petrol cars to race for a recognised class victory which the PR boys at Honda,Toyota,Nissan etc,etc could put to excellent commercial use.What you can't do is allow the diesel cars to humiliate their petrol opposition in public because manufacturers don't like that. Let Audi and Peugeot continue to share Le Mans victory between them but let it be known that there is nobody else in their class and its a diesel defeating a diesel. Alot more manufacturers would probably enter sports car racing on that basis. |
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21 May 2011, 09:28 (Ref:2883437) | #1025 | ||
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LMP Diesel, LMP Petrol, LMP2 is how it should be broken up but that'd make it 5 classes (LMPD, LMPP, LMP2, GTE-Pro, GTE-Am) at LM and 6 when the LMPC/FLM cars are included.
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