[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Mal

Well I agree and I find it hard to believe that the date clash could not have been avoided, which makes me wonder about its motivations..... unless the ACO actually believes that Bahrain wont happen due to the political situation so it will be easy to do a late swap to PLM. I suspect there are politics at work, which is a shame, but also I don't believe the FIA is Bernie's puppet under Todt in the same way as when it was run by Mosley

The scary thing is that I don't even think Bernie has to pull any strings to get the ACO to do what he wants them to do. If we are to believe that the ACO is not competing against F1 on their own volition, well, it would be like Bernie buying a wife without actually having to pay for it. It's an untenable strategy too. Look, the F1 calendar is approaching NASCAR levels of bloat and it's only getting worse. Add to that this strategy F1 has now of scheduling races that have almost no hopes of actually occurring just because someone promises Bernie money. How can the ACO realistically schedule around F1 when they won't even know what the F1 schedule is until the 11th hour?

Call me cynical, but warts and all, the ALMS is still a pretty legitimate series. It's broadcast around the world and it has some good teams. ALMS teams (or at least American teams) could realistically win 3 of the 4 classes at Le Mans next year. It's not a stretch at all to make that claim. It obviously has some events of value. Does the ACO think they have to kill (or at least gut even further) the ALMS to the point where nobody thinks of it as being a major league sports car series?

[JAG]

Dagys mentioned something may change regarding ther PLM clash, but it wouldn't be know until early December, possibly later.

[FstrthnU]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...teks-for-2012/
Greaves already announced they'd be in the WEC, but they've confirmed that they're sticking with Zytek-Nissans. The cars will be new chassis's, though. The old car will be kept around as a test car. One of them will run in the LMS, the other in the WEC, and both will be put into the 24 Hours of Le Mans

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

See, this is why I don't think I can support this series. So is the whole of Le Mans style sports car racing subject to the whims of Bernie Ecclestone and company from here on out? What a bunch of losers then if so. Yes, there is the excitement of Toyota, Porsche, and maybe others coming in, but I'll never be able to enjoy it because I'll have my eyes closed while wincing at the inevitable train wreck that will happen down the road. And it will happen. It'll be no different than CART defecating away 4 big-time automakers/engine suppliers, multiple chassis suppliers, two big-time tire manufacturers, several great teams, several Fortune 500 team sponsors, a major title sponsor, all of the top choice of tracks in the US (aside from Indy which they never had to begin with), and a big TV deal. Crapped it all away in less than 10 years. I'm not going to get optimistic about manafacturers because I was a tad optimistic about the WTCC only to see that turn into a whole bunch of nothing. So much for the FIA being the golden goose.

As cowardly as the ALMS is, at least they sometimes realize that you have to look out for #1 first and foremost. Did they scurry away when establishing Petit because it would be very difficult to attract large crowds on a Saturday afternoon/night in the south due to the extreme popularity of college football in the area? No. They did their own thing and look what happened. Huge, passionate fans. It elevated Le Mans to a level unknown before. It certainly did that in the US. But nooo. Behold king Bernie. Behold the King of Bahrain and whatever shortsighted treasures he has in his litterbox of all that is wrong with the world.

That's it as far as I'm concerned unless someone can come up for a logical reasoning for all of this. If the whole reason for becoming F1's female dog is so some drivers and teams can put "World Champion" on their CV, well, I have news for them. If you have to get someone to read you CV to know what you've done, well, you've done nothing glorious in the eyes of the public. You might as well be racing Formula Fords. If the idea is that "World Championship" status will make ACO racing glorious, well, just how glorified are the champions of the WTCC and GT1 Championship? Do they even have champions because as far as I can tell, the guy who finished in 5th place in the IRL championship probably gets more attention. Maybe the IRL should get "World Championship" status. They fit the criteria, don't they? No, no, even the IRL isn't that stupid. Now that's saying something.

The ACO can suck Bernie's DeltaWing all they want. If they think that is the road to riches, well, fine. They may feel the momentary high of being the "chosen" one for a little while, but just like a floozy on the perpetual rebound, they'll find out that they are only wanted so the "king" can spread his mayonnaise freely. You can get your buns toasted in eager anticipation, but not me. Hold the mayo.

* No, I'm not drunk. I'm serious!

NA jumped on the Le Mans bandwagon a decade ago, making a great success of their domestic series, but Le Mans and World Championship sportscar racing has a history dating back to the fifties.

The ALMS made the most of their window of opportunity, thanks in part because the World Championship failed in '92, and various potential replacments such as BPR/FIA GT and FIA SCC failed to grab their opportunity. It ultimately forced the ACO to take greater control of the sport to ensure prototype racing had a future, and more manufactuers followed Audi's lead (themselves a long time advocate of a WC) with long-term, sustained campaigns, giving the sport a platform to build on.

You talk about F1 clashes being irrelvant, but your from a part of the world were motorsport = NASCAR, ask people elsewhere to name a NASCAR driver and they'll come up with Montoya or Ricky Bobby, even Danica Patrick is a virtual unknown.

In recent years the ALMS' teams have increasingly been just that, domestic competitors, the WEC is more likely to attract teams and drivers from F1, LMS, FIA GT1/GT3/national GT, WTCC/BTCC/DTM, GP2, F3 and such.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

You talk about F1 clashes being irrelvant, but your from a part of the world were motorsport = NASCAR, ask people elsewhere to name a NASCAR driver and they'll come up with Montoya or Ricky Bobby, even Danica Patrick is a virtual unknown.

This isn't true as much as you think it is. People here are aware of other forms of racing. The Indy 500 still gets ratings pretty close to that of regular NASCAR races. How many non-F1 races get F1 type ratings in Europe? The NHRA, IRL, and the various road racing series each have their fan bases. The American racing fan is more pragmatic than European fans I think. Europeans will watch F1 races even if the races consist of Bernie racing Mosley on tricycles while both are naked. Americans, on the other hand, adopt a series when the racing is good and then dump it when the product isn't so good. That's why series like Trans-Am, Indycar, and so forth can go from the penthouse to the outhouse almost overnight. Even NASCAR is has lost a lot of it's casual viewership. I definitely don't see as much NASCAR marketing in everyday life as I did 5 years ago. It's still the 800lb. gorilla, but they are clearly suffering from the "Idiot Grandson" dilemma that Indycar had to go through too.

But that is not the point. Ok, a world championship is fine. I had no problem with the ILMC. Well, no major problem at least. I thought it was a fine championship that had room to grow. Why dump the good to suck on Bernie's jock though? It's now part of Bernie's vast sideshow circus and the argument could be made that the ACO is purposely keeping it a sideshow by refusing to break out of the F1 ideology and system. The ACO has the opportunity to adopt a very large fanbase of fans here in NA that have been cultivated by the ALMS, but noooo, they want to fit into Bernie's system. It's just idiotic thinking and it's retarding the progress of the sport. If you have a large fanbase, embrace them! It's not that hard! We're not opposed to a world championship, but we are if you spit on us. And spit on us for no good reason.

[kober]

Originally Posted by JAG

NA jumped on the Le Mans bandwagon a decade ago, making a great success of their domestic series, but Le Mans and World Championship sportscar racing has a history dating back to the fifties.

Or even twenties.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by AGD

I had no problem with the ILMC. Well, no major problem at least.

Specifically? I think the current dislike has its roots with the first formation of ILMC. This dislike or doubt seemed to start much before WEC was even announced. Even though ALMS's own downfall (2008=>) is not directly related, ILMC and WEC has now sealed that ALMS will no longer be the main stage for prototypes outside LM. Is that one reason for the angryness?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by JAG

Dagys mentioned something may change regarding ther PLM clash, but it wouldn't be know until early December, possibly later.

WMSC meets 7 December.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

This isn't true as much as you think it is. People here are aware of other forms of racing. The Indy 500 still gets ratings pretty close to that of regular NASCAR races. How many non-F1 races get F1 type ratings in Europe? The NHRA, IRL, and the various road racing series each have their fan bases. The American racing fan is more pragmatic than European fans I think. Europeans will watch F1 races even if the races consist of Bernie racing Mosley on tricycles while both are naked. Americans, on the other hand, adopt a series when the racing is good and then dump it when the product isn't so good. That's why series like Trans-Am, Indycar, and so forth can go from the penthouse to the outhouse almost overnight. Even NASCAR is has lost a lot of it's casual viewership. I definitely don't see as much NASCAR marketing in everyday life as I did 5 years ago. It's still the 800lb. gorilla, but they are clearly suffering from the "Idiot Grandson" dilemma that Indycar had to go through too.

But that is not the point. Ok, a world championship is fine. I had no problem with the ILMC. Well, no major problem at least. I thought it was a fine championship that had room to grow. Why dump the good to suck on Bernie's jock though? It's now part of Bernie's vast sideshow circus and the argument could be made that the ACO is purposely keeping it a sideshow by refusing to break out of the F1 ideology and system. The ACO has the opportunity to adopt a very large fanbase of fans here in NA that have been cultivated by the ALMS, but noooo, they want to fit into Bernie's system. It's just idiotic thinking and it's retarding the progress of the sport. If you have a large fanbase, embrace them! It's not that hard! We're not opposed to a world championship, but we are if you spit on us. And spit on us for no good reason.

Ecclestone has nothing to do with the WEC or anything outside F1, the FIA is a very different organisation to what it was twenty years ago.

NA is part of the WEC, it will have two rounds, both series are too large to compete together, but when a WEC standalone round is proposed it's claimed the series is setting up in competition with the ALMS, you'll never satisfy everyone.

The ALMS' fanbase should be served by a strong domestic series, not limp along until the WEC shows up for a couple of joint races.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by deggis

Specifically? I think the current dislike has its roots with the first formation of ILMC. This dislike or doubt seemed to start much before WEC was even announced. Even though ALMS's own downfall (2008=>) is not directly related, ILMC and WEC has now sealed that ALMS will no longer be the main stage for prototypes outside LM. Is that one reason for the angryness?

I think some fans may be upset about that, but that was not my issue with the ILMC and it's not my issue with the WEC. I don't think it's what most fans are upset about either given the attendance at Petit lately. You know my favorite series is the LMS and I didn't appreciate the way the ACO virtually ignored the LMS' presence in their shared races. That was very unfortunate. On top of that, the strength of the LMS last year meant that there was some good racing in P2 and GTE, but you'd never know about it since the ACO was too busy showing Quesnel's forehead.

Well, these issues have been dealt with one way or another. That's not the point of contention for me. My issue is why is the F1 calendar more important than the calendars of Le Mans series partners. Apparently the ALMS calendar wasn't important at all considering the rumor that the ALMS was not even informed about Bahrain until it was announced publicly. What utter rubbish. Who is the ACO looking out for? F1 or sports car racing? ILMC, ALMS, LMS, AsLMS, whatever, we're mainly one fan base. Why fracture that? And fracture it for what benefit? So that Bahrain can stay in good favor with Bernie and so the ACO can get the short time high of a large sanctioning fee? Who is in charge here? The Three Amigos?

[TF110]

Why do you keep bringing up Bernie? He's FOM, not FIA, not ACO. If you want to blame something or someone, look at the FIA, not Bernie. He's not concerned with this, if anything it's the people you're trying to defend that're to blame for the dates. It's an FIA WEC, the FIA also have the F1 championship, whats more popular? It doesn't take a genius to know that scheduling your series on alternate weekends to the most watched form of racing will better serve your chances of getting viewers.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Ecclestone has nothing to do with the WEC or anything outside F1, the FIA is a very different organisation to what it was twenty years ago.

NA is part of the WEC, it will have two rounds, both series are too large to compete together, but when a WEC standalone round is proposed it's claimed the series is setting up in competition with the ALMS, you'll never satisfy everyone.

The ALMS' fanbase should be served by a strong domestic series, not limp along until the WEC shows up for a couple of joint races.

Why do you keep bringing up the issue that the grids will not allow both series? I think we all get that. That is not the problem. Most of us knew that Petit would not be on the WEC calendar and that was ok. The issue is why in the wide world of sports did the WEC schedule Bahrain on the same freakin' day as Petit? That makes NO sense from anybody's perspective. It's a stupid decision 100% of the time. Period. You can't defend it. It's as simple as that.

And the ALMS isn't some piddly late model stock car series. They are supposed to be partners with the ACO. Outside of Le Mans, no races have the buzz of Sebring or Petit. Nothing even comes close. Drivers from other series come and race in those races when they can. The viewing areas are packed. It gets mainstream media coverage. The auto media are there and take the event seriously. The ability to attract top teams from across the world (some of whom really like being here) helps the ALMS and the buzz and publicity of Petit (and Sebring) helps the ACO whether it be in increasing the scope of Le Mans or the WEC. It does not have to be a WEC round for that to happen, but it can't be scheduled over by some tumbleweed festival in the desert. The kills the buzz of Petit and kills the buzz of Bahrain (ha!). Man, those ACO people must have spend a lot of time in the hot desert of Bahrain because clearly they are seeing visions that aren't there.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by TF110

Why do you keep bringing up Bernie? He's FOM, not FIA, not ACO. If you want to blame something or someone, look at the FIA, not Bernie. He's not concerned with this, if anything it's the people you're trying to defend that're to blame for the dates. It's an FIA WEC, the FIA also have the F1 championship, whats more popular? It doesn't take a genius to know that scheduling your series on alternate weekends to the most watched form of racing will better serve your chances of getting viewers.

Trust me, I'm blaming the FIA. I'm not blaming Bernie so as much as I am saying that the ACO is either living in fear of Bernie or they love him so much that they won't go up against him. It's a completely stupid idea though. It may or may not make sense to go up against F1 throughout the year. I think you'd have to look at each race on a one-by-one basis. In the case of the Petit/Bahrain race, it makes perfect sense to go up against F1 so that they can both have a free run.

Plus, there is the potential issue that the only reason why Bahrain is on the schedule to begin with is so Bernie can make a case that Bahrain is ready for F1 again. He can tell the teams and media, "Well, if the WEC plans on going there, why can't I take their money...errr....why can't we race there?" Hell, who knows, Bernie might be funding the WEC race for all we know.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by AGD

Plus, there is the potential issue that the only reason why Bahrain is on the schedule to begin with is so Bernie can make a case that Bahrain is ready for F1 again. He can tell the teams and media, "Well, if the WEC plans on going there, why can't I take their money...errr....why can't we race there?" Hell, who knows, Bernie might be funding the WEC race for all we know.

Case for 2013? Because the Bahrain GP is scheduled for April.

[JAG]

PLM is what it is purely because of the entry over the years, Sebring and Daytona have the historical significance, PLM is an example of what each WEC round could be.

If I was running the ALMS I would have a/ Held back announcing a date for PLM knowing the potential for WEC non-inclusion/clash b/ Wouldn't stick stubbornly to the date knowing your worst fears came true.

There's plenty of time to work things out if there's a desire from both sides, the reality is few if any WEC teams may wish to go to PLM, Peugeot only went to take on Audi, and both pushed for the WEC.

[TF110]

I don't buy that. Bernie is the organiser sure, but the FIA also have the word in where they choose to race. Bahrain's F1 date was cut, now their WEC date is on. So obviously it's fit to race there in the FIA's eyes. This could be compensation for no race this year. Having two next.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

This could be compensation for no race this year. Having two next.

Bahrain still paid for the GP even though FOM offered to give the fee back. I think this compensation theory is contradictory.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by deggis

Case for 2013? Because the Bahrain GP is scheduled for April.

It's on the calendar, but it's position on the calendar is not without contention. Bernie still has to make a case for it. If Bernie can tell the teams that the WEC has no issue with going to Bahrain (even if it is later in the year), well, it makes the team's protests seem less valid.

http://www.inautonews.com/officials-...in-axe-rumours
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1...-austin-debut/

Originally Posted by JAG

PLM is what it is purely because of the entry over the years, Sebring and Daytona have the historical significance, PLM is an example of what each WEC round could be.

Ok. Bahrain could be the next Petit. Ha, well, it's possible. But guess what? It being the next Petit is not purely contingent on it running on that date I don't think. Second, why throw away Petit trying to chase the next Petit? I'm not saying put it on the WEC calendar, but just let it be as it was in 2009 and prior. If teams show up, great. If not, well, at least the opportunity was there. I'm sure some will show up. It'll get a lot of attention and it'll connect fans to Le Mans and the WEC.

Oh, and while Petit may be a relatively new race, Road Atlanta does have major history with American road racing. Obviously the popularity of the races weren't nearly as big during the Whittington Brothers days as they are now.

If I was running the ALMS I would have a/ Held back announcing a date for PLM knowing the potential for WEC non-inclusion/clash b/ Wouldn't stick stubbornly to the date knowing your worst fears came true.

There's plenty of time to work things out if there's a desire from both sides, and potential entrants.

So when do you want the ALMS to announce their schedule? December? Rumor indicates that the ACO wasn't so willing to share information with the ALMS so what choice do they have? Maybe they thought they made the choice the ACO wanted. Who knows when these Bahrain details became finalized. It's a screwed up situation. That's the bottom line.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

Bahrain still paid for the GP even though FOM offered to give the fee back. I think this compensation theory is contradictory.

Compensation isn't just money. To compensate is to reward back something, in this case they get double duty for their track/Country. I never said anything about them not paying for it. They may never see that money back, but at least they get to host two FIA sanctioned events.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

So when do you want the ALMS to announce their schedule? December? Rumor indicates that the ACO wasn't so willing to share information with the ALMS so what choice do they have? Maybe they thought they made the choice the ACO wanted. Who knows when these Bahrain details became finalized. It's a screwed up situation. That's the bottom line.

It's November 18 today, there are still question marks over two, possibly three ALMS rounds, not including PLM. Atherton claims he was shocked at the races exclusion, yet even on PLM weekend the feeling was it would only be on the calender if Brazil fell through.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's November 18 today, there are still question marks over two, possibly three ALMS rounds, not including PLM. Atherton claims he was shocked at the races exclusion, yet even on PLM weekend the feeling was it would only be on the calender if Brazil fell through.

I don't see what impact the TBDs have on this. They're probably both going to be "deleted" anyway. The Detroit race was given consideration, but ultimately the ALMS decided to let the teams go to the test day. That's a bit of a sacrifice on their part, but it benefits the ACO and it benefits themselves in the long run. That's the way things are supposed to work. The second TBD, I don't know. Austin? That won't happen. Anyway, even the TBDs had TV contingencies so the ALMS did do some legwork on that. They weren't sitting around.

As for Atherton, he says a lot of things, but he did not say what you claim he said. This is what he said:

"After the 24 Hours of Le Mans itself, two of the world's greatest endurance sports-car races are Petit Le Mans and the Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring, fueled by Fresh from Florida. That is why it is an even greater disappointment to suddenly learn that the ACO has decided to schedule an event in conflict with Petit Le Mans in 2012.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111114/ALMS/111119929

He knew Petit wasn't going to be a WEC round. What he did not know was that Bahrain was going to be on the same day as Petit. That's consistent with the rumors.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by AGD

It's on the calendar, but it's position on the calendar is not without contention. Bernie still has to make a case for it. If Bernie can tell the teams that the WEC has no issue with going to Bahrain (even if it is later in the year), well, it makes the team's protests seem less valid.

(Second link was new to me.) Still this would make more sense if WEC race was before F1 GP.

Originally Posted by TF110

Compensation isn't just money. To compensate is to reward back something, in this case they get double duty for their track/Country. I never said anything about them not paying for it. They may never see that money back, but at least they get to host two FIA sanctioned events.

The fact that they paid for the GP that didn't happen, even though FOM offered to give the money back - does it sound like the Bahrainis are blaming FIA for the cancellation? If anything Bahrain is compensating. Altough that's almost equally worrying.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by deggis

(Second link was new to me.) Still this would make more sense if WEC race was before F1 GP.

They're more than welcome to move the race to February or something! But, anyway, the fact that the WEC teams aren't saying "Hell no, we won't go" (at least publicly) may help Bernie's cause a little. If nothing else, it helps for 2013+ especially if the 2012 F1 dates gets canceled or delayed.

[Rodger Davies]

Can't believe people are having the cheek to criticise the way the ALMS has done this, they are getting screwed over by the ACO; plain and simple. There's no way that these parties couldn't have worked out a combined schedule and seeing as the ALMS clearly stated the date of PLM a long time in advance of the WEC calendar's confirmation there's just no excuses. Especially seeing as it's Bahrain, so it's not like there's a busy schedule at the track that it HAD to be that weekend.

We should be excitedly talking about the upcoming season, but the ACO/FIA are once again pointing barrels at themselves and top class sportscar racing in general.

[alexkiller8]

well first of all in my opinion road atlanta is not a track that can host more than 50 cars like this year, and the various crashes because of traffic (and the full yellow flag race's laps) is a proof. But really i can't accept a round in bharein, that doesn't fit a f*ck with this kind of motorsport! a round at abu dhabi was a really better option.