[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

We should be excitedly talking about the upcoming season, but the ACO/FIA are once again pointing barrels at themselves and top class sportscar racing in general.

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. I'm glad it's not just those of us in NA that feel that way. Look, I want to get excited about the upcoming cars and such, but this type of decision is disgraceful and I'm afraid it will only lead to more tears down the road. I'm not going to bury my head in the sands of Bahrain and ignore all the bad things especially when absolutely idiotic moves like the Petit decision are being made.

The ALMS may have stalled out in the last couple of years, but they set the roadmap for success years ago. Back in the late 90s, everyone thought you had to be like NASCAR to succeed as a racing series in the US. Well, they gave that idea the finger and they had (and still have) a lot of success even with some pretty significant obstacles. Why the ACO wants to submit themselves to rigidly forced sloppy seconds is beyond me when the road map to success, ILMC, was looking promising.

[porsche91722]

This whinging and moaning has been going on for a week or so now......get over it!
We all get, how you are crying over your loss. The decision has been made. The WEC 2012 calender is pretty much, set in stone. PLM on the world stage, ain't happening for next year, OK. Complaining on forums, from sports car racing fans, isn't gonna change things. If the power brokers within the series are happy with the format next year, it will stay, if they're not, it'll change. Let's all start bellyaching at the completion of the season next year, if it turns out to be a dud. Most of us have been keen to see a World Sports Car Championship of some description, actually happen, instead of the de facto ILMC. The first season will no doubt see some things that need to be rectified, and maybe PLM will be back on the WEC schedule.

[The Badger]

Good comment

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Good comment

I agree. I feel the pain of PLM. But when you hear the exact same thing for a week it starts to get a bit much.

John Dagys is putting out his thoughts on the matter hopefully sometime today. I'll be interested to read that but then I'm just going to look forward to Sebring and hopefully the release of a great WEC/Le Mans entry.

[carsten66]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

This whinging and moaning has been going on for a week or so now......get over it!
We all get, how you are crying over your loss. The decision has been made. The WEC 2012 calender is pretty much, set in stone. PLM on the world stage, ain't happening for next year, OK. Complaining on forums, from sports car racing fans, isn't gonna change things. If the power brokers within the series are happy with the format next year, it will stay, if they're not, it'll change. Let's all start bellyaching at the completion of the season next year, if it turns out to be a dud. Most of us have been keen to see a World Sports Car Championship of some description, actually happen, instead of the de facto ILMC. The first season will no doubt see some things that need to be rectified, and maybe PLM will be back on the WEC schedule.

Yep... thank's

[deggis]

The international report on Bahrain has been now released.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-protests.html

F1 blog: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/t...endent-report/

As far as next April's scheduled grand prix is concerned, my feeling is that it remains in the balance. Formula One's teams and sponsors are clearly waiting to see how the world reacts to this report; to judge the mood. After what happened this summer – when the grand prix was reinstated only to be dropped again following international condemnation – they are highly sensitive.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Perhaps the ACO booked Bahrain the same day as PLM knowing full well it won't happen, collect the sanction fee, cancel the race due to humanitarian reasons, then re-instate PLM? Allow me to grasp at straws please...

[AGD]

Even if the F1 race gets canceled, I'd expect the WEC race to carry on unless the manufacturers really, really make a stink about it. I think Bernie wants the WEC to go there so he can make a case for F1 returning there. Another possibility is that the Bahrain F1 race gets moved back until November or so. In a case like that, the WEC definitely could be used as a test case.

The good news is that Dagys did not list Bahrain as one of the places where Toyota may show up. Things could change I guess, but that is hardly a shocking rumor. Maybe they'll end up at Petit.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

This whinging and moaning has been going on for a week or so now......get over it!

It's a forum, that's what people do.... get over it!

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by AGD

Even if the F1 race gets canceled, I'd expect the WEC race to carry on unless the manufacturers really, really make a stink about it. I think Bernie wants the WEC to go there so he can make a case for F1 returning there. Another possibility is that the Bahrain F1 race gets moved back until November or so. In a case like that, the WEC definitely could be used as a test case.

Bernie couldn't care less about WEC and has no influence over the ACO nor, arguably, the FIA.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Bernie couldn't care less about WEC and has no influence over the ACO nor, arguably, the FIA.

Not necessarily. In a case like this, Bernie might have told the Bahrain people that they needed to pay to get another series (WEC) to run an event there in order to make a case for the F1 race. Either that or Bernie cut a check himself, but that seems less likely when it looks like the Bahrain people seem more than willing to pay whatever it costs to keep Bernie happy. Bahrain really, really wants an F1 race and paying to get the WEC over there might be a small price for them to pay to get their F1 race back.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It's a forum, that's what people do.... get over it!

What .... whinge, moan, cry and complain over such an earth shattering event, such as the loss of a round of a motorsports series.
Bring out the violins and tissues, I'm almost in tears myself.

[The Badger]

It certainly sounds like , for the ALMS to make a successful event of PLM , it needs support from European teams . So , is it really such a great event then ? Its certainly a great track .

Maybe it should revert back to standard race time format , if it cant be supported from its own series ? Which it obviously cant , otherwise whats the panic .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

What .... whinge, moan, cry and complain over such an earth shattering event, such as the loss of a round of a motorsports series.
Bring out the violins and tissues, I'm almost in tears myself.

We're not talking about an ordinary round. Nobody is complaining about the loss of the Baltimore GP. Petit has quickly become one of the most important sports car races in the world due to the fan and competitor interest in the race. I'm sure other races like Le Mans, Spa 24, or the N24 being crippled would be big news as well.

Originally Posted by The Badger

It certainly sounds like , for the ALMS to make a successful event of PLM , it needs support from European teams . So , is it really such a great event then ? Its certainly a great track .

How many Le Mans style races (aside from Le Mans itself) in Europe (or anywhere else aside N. America) have even half of the fan and media interest that Petit has? To throw all of that away for Bahrain is just so mind boggling. And while American sports car racing is in a down period right now, remember that 3 of the 4 classes at Le Mans could very easily be won by American teams. Ok, the one class where they don't have a chance is the one class that the Europeans care about. Fine, but don't pretend that North America is irrelevant to this type of racing. There are a lot of fans here and a lot of relevant consumers here in North America and I really don't get why the ACO is so eager to **** us off.

I think Petit still has a good shot of surviving if Donny and Scotty get off their duffs and make changes that would fire up the American fan base. Atlanta is a great location for many manufacturers and suppliers so I think it still has a chance, but we'll see what happens.

[FstrthnU]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...to-take-shape/

John Dagys reports on the expected WEC field so far

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by AGD

How many Le Mans style races (aside from Le Mans itself) in Europe (or anywhere else aside N. America) have even half of the fan and media interest that Petit has?

From where I'm sitting I honestly don't think a 2012 Petit would get any more media interest than a 2012 Bahrain. The only country where you'd see a difference is in the States.

Petit is only a big race inside our sportscar bubble. Beyond that the man in the street hasn't heard of it and he sure as hell hasn't heard of Road Atlanta.

At least people, rightly or wrongly, are aware of a racing facility in Bahrain due to the F1 races. If you are trying to pitch a new series to the masses that could actually carry a level of prestige (issues in the country aside). That's the sad truth.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Simmi

From where I'm sitting I honestly don't think a 2012 Petit would get any more media interest than a 2012 Bahrain. The only country where you'd see a difference is in the States.

Well, that's the problem in 2012. The media is going to be split. And it's not like the sports car media contingent is so huge that it can afford to be split. I'm sure some of the US auto bloggers and other non-racing specific media will still visit Petit and CNN is always poking around since it is their backyard. I'm sure the Bahraini auto bloggers will be in full force at Bahrain WEC. Ha.

Petit is only a big race inside our sportscar bubble. Beyond that the man in the street hasn't heard of it and he sure as hell hasn't heard of Road Atlanta.

Petit may not be a big deal outside NA, but it is a big deal here. Ok, it's not Daytona or Indianapolis, but the relevant automotive crowd knows about it. Plus, Atlanta and the rest of the Deep South is a very, very important market for the American automotive industry. It's almost like a modern Detroit. Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Hyundai/Kia, Mercedes-Benz, and Honda all have massive manufacturing plants in the South and I'm probably forgetting some names. Suppliers for the industry are located near by as well. Obviously Michelin US is in near by South Carolina and Bridgestone US is based in not so far away Nashville. Porsche NA is based in Atlanta itself.

Anyway, American sports fans know that Atlanta is known as being a very, very fickle sports town. I remember when the Braves would not even sell out playoff games. That almost never happens anywhere else. It's not because people in Atlanta don't have money, it's because people in the area are picky since they have so many entertainment options. Thus, to see so many people go to Road Atlanta really does say something about how the area has supported and embraced the race and sports car racing. Instead of the ACO reaching out to this crowd of mainly new fans to ACO style racing, they want to urinate on them so they can cuddle up with some camels in the land of mirages.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by AGD

............Petit has quickly become one of the most important sports car races in the world due to the fan and competitor interest in the race. I'm sure other races like Le Mans, Spa 24, or the N24 being crippled would be big news as well.
There are a lot of fans here and a lot of relevant consumers here in North America and I really don't get why the ACO is so eager to **** us off.
...........

Nobody is denying that PLM has been a great event, in its relatively short history, however I don't think you can compare it with the heritage of the European 24 hour races. Audi, Peugeot, Porsche, BMW, Ferrari etc are hardly going to give them a miss. Unfortunately for all of you in North America, the reality is, that in the manufacturers minds, at the moment, there are more important markets than the U.S. That is not a statement in America bashing, but simply a fact. They (and the ACO) consider that other places are more worthy for the WEC in its debut year. Whether or not, places like Bahrain, Zhuhai, Baghdad or some other godforsaken third world ----hole gets a gig, end of next year, only time will tell.

Originally Posted by Simmi

From where I'm sitting I honestly don't think a 2012 Petit would get any more media interest than a 2012 Bahrain. The only country where you'd see a difference is in the States.

Petit is only a big race inside our sportscar bubble. Beyond that the man in the street hasn't heard of it and he sure as hell hasn't heard of Road Atlanta.

At least people, rightly or wrongly, are aware of a racing facility in Bahrain due to the F1 races. If you are trying to pitch a new series to the masses that could actually carry a level of prestige (issues in the country aside). That's the sad truth.

and the cars and manufacturers in the WEC are going to be a hell of a lot more identifiable to the big spenders in that part of the world than any of Bernie's chariots.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Nobody is denying that PLM has been a great event, in its relatively short history, however I don't think you can compare it with the heritage of the European 24 hour races. Audi, Peugeot, Porsche, BMW, Ferrari etc are hardly going to give them a miss. Unfortunately for all of you in North America, the reality is, that in the manufacturers minds, at the moment, there are more important markets than the U.S. That is not a statement in America bashing, but simply a fact. They (and the ACO) consider that other places are more worthy for the WEC in its debut year. Whether or not, places like Bahrain, Zhuhai, Baghdad or some other godforsaken third world ----hole gets a gig, end of next year, only time will tell.

It's all fine and good if the WEC wants to seek out new markets, but why take a dump on an old ones where there is still tremendous (by sports car racing standards) fan support? We're not talking about F1 where the US fan base is a blip on the F1 radar. The US is a large chunk of the global sports car racing fan base and the ALMS/US fan base has done a lot to promote the Le Mans name in recent years. If they did not want to put it on the WEC calendar, fine, that was the expectation all along anyway. Why try to make it irrelevant by scheduling over it when there are so many open dates? All it does is serve to diminish the fan support they have in the US and it probably also detracts some from other fan bases as well as there will be a bit of a sports car media split.

The ALMS and WEC were confronted with a bit of a similar situation and reacted quite differently:

ALMS - They could have gone to Detroit in 2012. It's a good automotive market and it seems that the Detroit group was keen on having the ALMS, but the ALMS decided to skip that opportunity in order to give the few teams they have that want to do Le Mans an opportunity to go to the Test Day. Although going to Detroit would have been nice, the ALMS knows that having teams go to Le Mans and do well is good promotion and the ALMS certainly does not want to lose teams due to tricky scheduling.

WEC - They could have gone to Bahrain on the same date as Petit and they decided to do so. Obviously some teams would have had interest in going to Petit. It may have not been many, but at least one powerhouse (Audi) was certainly interested in doing so. It's not like Audi, Toyota, or Peugeot were rallying for Bahrain. Peugeot does not even sell cars there and Toyota is rumored to not be interested in racing at Bahrain and perhaps they'll take their talents to Atlanta that weekend. Obviously having WEC cars at Petit would be good marketing for the WEC even if it isn't a WEC round as it makes the WEC relevant in a major market with a known passion for the type of racing.

It's interesting to see the differences in decisions by the two groups.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Simmi

At least people, rightly or wrongly, are aware of a racing facility in Bahrain due to the F1 races. If you are trying to pitch a new series to the masses that could actually carry a level of prestige (issues in the country aside). That's the sad truth.

The awareness of F1 over this side of the pond isn't very high either. I highly doubt the average person, or the masses know about Bahrain potentially having a race. The WEC except for a couple of anoraks is an invisible series over here.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

What .... whinge, moan, cry and complain over such an earth shattering event, such as the loss of a round of a motorsports series.
Bring out the violins and tissues, I'm almost in tears myself.

No, people just whinge, moan and complain about everything.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

Petit may not be a big deal outside NA, but it is a big deal here. Ok, it's not Daytona or Indianapolis, but the relevant automotive crowd knows about it. Plus, Atlanta and the rest of the Deep South is a very, very important market for the American automotive industry. It's almost like a modern Detroit. Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Hyundai/Kia, Mercedes-Benz, and Honda all have massive manufacturing plants in the South and I'm probably forgetting some names. Suppliers for the industry are located near by as well. Obviously Michelin US is in near by South Carolina and Bridgestone US is based in not so far away Nashville. Porsche NA is based in Atlanta itself.

That only leads you to ask why, with manufactuers and industry on it's doorstep, does the ALMS/PLM not attract more, major, home grown support.

Toyota has a huge presence in NA but they choose to focus on NASCAR, the WEC is funded by Toyota Japan/Europe, the same people who backed the F1, WRC and previous Le Mans efforts.

If they so wished, Toyota NA has the financial muscle and technical expertise to develop a bespoke ALMS P1, trouble is, like Audi NA, we don't know if they'd even allocate funding to run a TMG developed car should it be offered.

[TF110]

America is Nascar country. Nascar is the king in motorsports here. That's why Toyota is in it. ALMS? Only sebring and PLM are of any significance. The market sees Nascar much more than ALMS. Branding a Camry in Nascar does more for them than making an LMP for ALMS, which may or may not exist in a couple years. Europe is another story.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by TF110

America is Nascar country. Nascar is the king in motorsports here. That's why Toyota is in it. ALMS? Only sebring and PLM are of any significance. The market sees Nascar much more than ALMS. Branding a Camry in Nascar does more for them than making an LMP for ALMS, which may or may not exist in a couple years. Europe is another story.

Bingo. Your average Nascar race at Martinsville or wherever gets significantly more American media, fan, and sponsor interest than the Sebring 12 Hour and Petit Le Mans, with the rest of the ALMS races being invisible, with their highlights last shown behind World of Outlaws sprint car racing on the SPEED Report, the only television show in the U.S. that highlights their races. If you're a major company and want to use motorsports as a marketing tool in North America, especially for a company like Toyota, then NASCAR is really your only chance of being hugely successful. Unless you are a luxury car maker, or have cars like the Corvette or M3 in your line-up.

However, I will say that I would think both those ALMS races I just mentioned are a hell of a lot better and more important than some round of a first year championship in Bahrain, and judging by the reaction of Audi and even Peugeot, it appears that is the case.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

That only leads you to ask why, with manufactuers and industry on it's doorstep, does the ALMS/PLM not attract more, major, home grown support.

Toyota has a huge presence in NA but they choose to focus on NASCAR, the WEC is funded by Toyota Japan/Europe, the same people who backed the F1, WRC and previous Le Mans efforts.

Toyota has spent big money on sports car racing in the US in the past. I don't know whether that was Toyota Global's money or Toyota US. Anyway, I see a few things that have impacted why it has been so long that Toyota has returned to sports car racing. First, at least in the US, Toyota has almost zero "enthusiast" cars within their range and even the Lexus range. Thus, what's the point of marketing to enthusiasts? So they spend money marketing to the mainstream and that's why there was F1 and NASCAR. I think the reason for the sports car program now is to market their hybrid systems. This is a new situation and so we'll see what happens.

Also, the cost structure of NASCAR is quite different than that of sports car and European style racing. In NASCAR, Toyota spends money, but it is ultimately privateer teams with big time independent sponsorship that run the operations. Even IRL/CART was a bit like this, but it was obviously harder for teams to get their own money in the latter days of Toyota's OW program. That's a really different paradigm from F1, WRC, and sports cars where the factory runs the team and is in charge of getting any sponsorships. It's totally understandable why Toyota NA (or anyone else for that matter) would want to stay within the comfort of the NASCAR system and not within the risky environment of European style racing. They can get all the glory with less risk and effort.

So all this said, I don't think every Toyota division where there is a WEC race globally is going to cut Toyota a check for them to race there. I think Toyota Global will realize the importance of the US market and will want to race here at big events. Hybrids are big here. Most of the major manufacturers are offering hybrid models here so there is intense competition. I think the government is still providing pretty large subsidies to people who buy hybrids (that may have expired so I could be wrong on that) and of course we have some boutique hybrid car manufacturers here and so forth. To Americans, fuel efficient cars are hybrids, not diesels or any other alternative fuel like that. There's still hybrid doubters, but maybe a racing program can change some of that ala what the R10 to promote diesel elsewhere.