Audi LMP1 Discussion

[chernaudi]

Outside of a persistent wheel gun problem for the #8 (why they couldn't fix it or change out the air wrench is beyond me), you do have to remember that a full refueling for Audi also takes a handful of seconds more usually.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

You do seem to be forgetting the rear wheel arch louvers/grating in 2010, engine downsizing in 2011, and various BOP changes in LMP1 since 2009, including the EOT changes.

Also, the 2014 rules required new tubs due to narrowed wheel track and housings for the fuel flow sensors and the sensors themselves. 2018 will more than likely require new chassis and new aero due to the taller greenhouses and new front and rear diffuser rules (if they've been pushed back to 2018).

That wheel arch in 2013 was just a clarification on a loophole in the regulations. It could have been done in 2009 but no one thought of it until 2012. BOP changes are not expensive rule or reg changes. They don't have anything to do with how the cars are built. New chassis are being made each year or two anyway. So them changing in 2018 isn't a big deal, they're the first new rules in 4 years. I think it's fine and would rather see new rules open up so there's more avenues of development and not just front diffusers/wings.

[chernaudi]

Biggest disappointment is that not only did the #7 Audi DNF (not that it would've gotten a worthwhile result with the busted MGU if it was allowed to continue anyways), but right now, Audi Media Center have only 62 photos up from Fuji. Hopefully they'll have more up soon, since the race has been over for only about an hour.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Outside of a persistent wheel gun problem for the #8 (why they couldn't fix it or change out the air wrench is beyond me), you do have to remember that a full refueling for Audi also takes a handful of seconds more usually.

If you consider the stop time that Ullrich said was to be expected to be their longest, and it takes them 1:25, and you look at (at least one) earlier stop where they took 1:29, for what presumably ought to have been a shorter one than the actually 1:25 executed one, then you may come to the conclusion that their pit stop execution in general, rather than their refueling times, cost them the race, pit-wise. These 4(+) seconds could've been the difference as we learned today.

[ederss7]

I'd really like to know how many seconds Audi lose every pit stop due to the refueling time and how many they lose because they're slow. It's hard to believe they'd lose 8 seconds without the refueling having impact in its overall time, though.

[bentley speed 8]

Did Audi have a problem with a wheel gun or something?

Edit: Forgot to read the posts above

[Articus]

Audi’s rumored exit from the FIA World Endurance Championship at the end of 2017 would not affect Toyota Gazoo Racing’s future commitment to LMP1, according to TMG Vice President Pascal Vasselon. “It would not impact our decision to stay or not,” he told Sportscar365. “For sure, it would weaken the series. But I don’t think they will do it because they’re fighting so hard for the 2018 regulations.”

interesting comment. Why would Audi fight so hard about 2018 regs if they would not plan to return and that a decision had already been made internally. If Audi are indeed entering the 2018 season, the car is already in development. So certainly their is some existing truth in that the car is either in development, or it's not and they will just pull out.

WEC is what it is today because of the commitment from VAG in LMP1 ad Toyota. Audi leaving weakens the WEC as a series which has a direct effect on Porsche. So a 2017 pullout from Audi starts to not be so straightforward.
A lot of the people that these teams want the the WEC to market to, don't really know or care that VAG owns both Porsche and Audi.

[bobec]

I also think that if Audi leaves it would weaken the series. Some have said here that the ACO won't care as long as the are teams that spend money on them. I don't fully agree with this, because even if money is not spent directly on the ACO, it is still spent on their series, which raises the quality and competitiveness of the series. It also brings a lot more hype, marketing and attention.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Outside of a persistent wheel gun problem for the #8 (why they couldn't fix it or change out the air wrench is beyond me), you do have to remember that a full refueling for Audi also takes a handful of seconds more usually.

Wheel guns are interesting bits of kit that rarely get talked about... I'd bet they don't have extras laying about. The Pilbeam SRP cars had different thread patterns depending on what side of the car you were on. Right side, reverse threads, left side, normal, forward threads. The guns have to spin opposite ways and be able to torque the nut the right way. The Oreca Viper's were the same.

Having spare guns lying about isn't common. Especially when Audi probably have really, really, really high tech ones.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Articus

interesting comment. Why would Audi fight so hard about 2018 regs if they would not plan to return and that a decision had already been made internally. If Audi are indeed entering the 2018 season, the car is already in development. So certainly their is some existing truth in that the car is either in development, or it's not and they will just pull out.

Not necessarily, manufacturers have proven to be willing to effectively throw away perfectly-ready cars before and effectively waste the money that went into developing the car.

The most recent example is Peugeot in 2012, the car was developed and ready to race and yet they decided to scrap the programme for political reasons, causing them to get nothing in return for the money spent on developing the car. It wasn't a smart economical decision, it was a political move.

And the same could happen at Audi. If the powers at VAG decide that it is good politics to leave the WEC then they'll do so, even if it means letting a well-developed new car go to waste. Heck, Porsche was forced to never race a well-developed LMP900 car in 2000 due to politics..this stuff happened all the time.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ederss7

I'd really like to know how many seconds Audi lose every pit stop due to the refueling time and how many they lose because they're slow. It's hard to believe they'd lose 8 seconds without the refueling having impact in its overall time, though.

3-4 seconds is the fuel fill time. Anything more is a botched Audi stop. Today's race was lost due to Audi issues.

They also played with fire by pitting even earlier than they needed to. Had there been a single yellow, it'd have destroyed their entire strategy.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Articus

interesting comment. Why would Audi fight so hard about 2018 regs if they would not plan to return and that a decision had already been made internally. If Audi are indeed entering the 2018 season, the car is already in development. So certainly their is some existing truth in that the car is either in development, or it's not and they will just pull out.

One word; Influence. We will see if the ACO calls their bluff. It's the loss of the ACO versus the probable "no loss" on the part of Audi.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

They also played with fire by pitting even earlier than they needed to. Had there been a single yellow, it'd have destroyed their entire strategy.

Only by one lap each stop - They evened out each stint to 34 laps (except the sixth, which was 35) instead of going 35 laps from the start and doing 29 laps at the end.

It was the two 89s stops that lost it for Audi today though, nothing more.

[Acid09]

German sources report Audi is also cancelling all further development on the R8 GT3. There seems to be some serious cost cutting going on...not good.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Not necessarily, manufacturers have proven to be willing to effectively throw away perfectly-ready cars before and effectively waste the money that went into developing the car.

The most recent example is Peugeot in 2012, the car was developed and ready to race and yet they decided to scrap the programme for political reasons, causing them to get nothing in return for the money spent on developing the car. It wasn't a smart economical decision, it was a political move.

And the same could happen at Audi. If the powers at VAG decide that it is good politics to leave the WEC then they'll do so, even if it means letting a well-developed new car go to waste. Heck, Porsche was forced to never race a well-developed LMP900 car in 2000 due to politics..this stuff happened all the time.

The Peugeot development was a very different one. The pressure to dump the program came on in a very short amount of time. There were no rumours or any indication that anyone was even thinking about program termination.
Also, Puegeot was not spending that much money...Maybe around 50 million to develop a new car. That Porsche LMP is from an entirely different era with regard to cost.

VAG is well aware of what is at stake as a result of dieselgate. Rumours have already hit of an Audi pull out and that an internal decision has already been made. If Audi did make the decision already, then they aren't developing a 2018 car. Not in this economic climate. They aren't going to spend the resources (400-500 million) to develop a 2018 R18 without total commitment to racing it.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Acid09

German sources report Audi is also cancelling all further development on the R8 GT3. There seems to be some serious cost cutting going on...not good.

Link please? (Not that I doubt you, but I'd like to have a read myself).

The GT3 program is supposed to be (and last time I checked, is) a money spinner for Audi Sport. They can "rely" on BoP to keep the R8 competitive so it's not as if they are stopping everything yet, but that's some relatively extreme cost-cutting.

[Articus]

GT3 isn't a manufacturer run field, technically those car's don't need development as BOP will make them close. If there is anything to cut, it should be GT3 car development not LMP1....People would happily race all day long in the last gen R8 GT3. Building the new spec car was a luxury for Audi in a class where there is no incentive to develop. Just update the carbon bodywork and send it on it's way when the new R8 comes out.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Link please? (Not that I doubt you, but I'd like to have a read myself).

The GT3 program is supposed to be (and last time I checked, is) a money spinner for Audi Sport. They can "rely" on BoP to keep the R8 competitive so it's not as if they are stopping everything yet, but that's some relatively extreme cost-cutting.

I agree. They make money on that program...

[Articus]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

I agree. They make money on that program...

The only thing that Audi needs to make money on, is the road cars. Everything else is a luxury.

[chernaudi]

And Audi are doing that--they've still had record sales around the world even after dieselgate broke, and they've set NA sales records over the past year after dieselgate broke out.

Problem is that a good chunk of those profits (and profits from Porsche, Bentley, Lamborghini, etc) will probably be used to pay off fines, court fees, and lawsuits.

If a pull out isn't truly a serious rumor right now, Audi Sport may be using this to play hardball with the ACO on the rules for '17's EOT BOP, and the 2018 regs, including cost containment.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If a pull out isn't truly a serious rumor right now, Audi Sport may be using this to play hardball with the ACO on the rules for '17's EOT BOP, and the 2018 regs, including cost containment.

Which appears to be the consensus.

[sssssssss]

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...rt-quotes-6949

audi are really starting to have enough of this, apparently. juttner says "it's exasperating" and ullrich clearly chose his words right this time too: "For the last service, Toyota used the strategic advantage of pitting late". even if they have the fastest car and make no mistakes, the strategy disadvantage will always hold them back - not to mention fcy cases like the previous two races. there has to be a change about this.

actually i think audi pulling out in 2018 makes quite a lot of sense, especially since marketing the diesel technology post-dieselgate might not be too useful anymore either. the fact that they are still negotiating hard for the 2018 rules doesn't mean much, as the people who negotiate in the wec might not be the ones who make the decision of audi leaving the series or not. of course, until it isn't official, they will do their job the same way they ever did. also, porsche's 919 hy development seems to come close to an end now, unlike audi's r18, so this might hand audi that one last le mans (and possibly wec) victory to leave the series they dominated for so long in full glory. i'm afraid that rumor has got big chances to be true. of course, it can also be just a part of the negotiation and a way of reminding aco who they are and how stable the series has been because of their involvment, but unfortunately, i think there's a bigger chance it's true, this time.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...rt-quotes-6949

audi are really starting to have enough of this, apparently. juttner says "it's exasperating" and ullrich clearly chose his words right this time too: "For the last service, Toyota used the strategic advantage of pitting late". even if they have the fastest car and make no mistakes, the strategy disadvantage will always hold them back - not to mention fcy cases like the previous two races. there has to be a change about this.

actually i think audi pulling out in 2018 makes quite a lot of sense, especially since marketing the diesel technology post-dieselgate might not be too useful anymore either. the fact that they are still negotiating hard for the 2018 rules doesn't mean much, as the people who negotiate in the wec might not be the ones who make the decision of audi leaving the series or not. of course, until it isn't official, they will do their job the same way they ever did. also, porsche's 919 hy development seems to come close to an end now, unlike audi's r18, so this might hand audi that one last le mans (and possibly wec) victory to leave the series they dominated for so long in full glory. i'm afraid that rumor has got big chances to be true. of course, it can also be just a part of the negotiation and a way of reminding aco who they are and how stable the series has been because of their involvment, but unfortunately, i think there's a bigger chance it's true, this time.

Audi could have went another lap before their stop(s). Yeah, they have a slower refueling time, but the stops themselves were slower. Even after all that, if Toyota didn't double stint, Audi would have won.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...rt-quotes-6949

audi are really starting to have enough of this, apparently. juttner says "it's exasperating" and ullrich clearly chose his words right this time too: "For the last service, Toyota used the strategic advantage of pitting late". even if they have the fastest car and make no mistakes, the strategy disadvantage will always hold them back - not to mention fcy cases like the previous two races. there has to be a change about this.

actually i think audi pulling out in 2018 makes quite a lot of sense, especially since marketing the diesel technology post-dieselgate might not be too useful anymore either. the fact that they are still negotiating hard for the 2018 rules doesn't mean much, as the people who negotiate in the wec might not be the ones who make the decision of audi leaving the series or not. of course, until it isn't official, they will do their job the same way they ever did. also, porsche's 919 hy development seems to come close to an end now, unlike audi's r18, so this might hand audi that one last le mans (and possibly wec) victory to leave the series they dominated for so long in full glory. i'm afraid that rumor has got big chances to be true. of course, it can also be just a part of the negotiation and a way of reminding aco who they are and how stable the series has been because of their involvment, but unfortunately, i think there's a bigger chance it's true, this time.

The reality is that the WEC is poised for huge growth if the hybrids are dropped. Yes, it goes against the popular direction, but, the return of Peugeot and bringing in others alongside the three currently in place, it would be the smart thing to do.

EDIT; There is going to be a tipping point of unsustainability... I'd thought it was going to be another few years before it happened, but, I think it's arrived in full force. Dieselgate aside, it was going to happen.

[ederss7]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Only by one lap each stop - They evened out each stint to 34 laps (except the sixth, which was 35) instead of going 35 laps from the start and doing 29 laps at the end.

It was the two 89s stops that lost it for Audi today though, nothing more.

About those 89s stops, they also went further in their stint, so they probably used more fuel during those longer pit stops, but the stints were still shorter than the petrol cars'.