Audi LMP1 Discussion

[MoMedic9019]

They have, but, it's seperate from all other projects.

[Starfish Primer]

Or it will be the main project for the 2018. It´s cheap and can sell a green look aligned with the e-tron branding.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

Wow, it says that Dr.Ulrich resigned already

Nope - that's not in the German text, though I have an idea how such a mistranslation could happen.

[chernaudi]

Dr Ullrich is due to retire after Jan. 1, 2018 anyways. VAG/Audi Sport kept him on until then, even though he's past retirement age and in theory should've left Audi Sport and retired at the end of the 2015 WEC season.

Cost are out of control, Audi dominated the WEC on half the budget they have now just a few years ago, and Toyota were winning races on a fraction of their reported 100 million Euro budget for 2016--and even that 100 million Euros is more than what Audi spent in 2012/13.

The WEC doesn't have the press coverage or mainstream appeal--let alone the money coming in--that F1 or NASCAR have, and Audi and Porsche are spending what a mid-pack F1 team might be spending, or what Ford, Toyota and GM are spending on NASCAR per season, and that's a 36 race season.

I think that Audi may be holding this over the heads of the ACO to show them how fragile the bubble is and that they should be doing something to contain costs and better balance competition while keeping the series relevant with road technologies and allowing some scope for development of tech and the cars themselves, and the sooner they can do this, the better.

It stands to reason that a 75-90 USD budget is more sustainable and easier for the bean-counters to swallow than 125-170 million.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

Or it will be the main project for the 2018. It´s cheap and can sell a green look aligned with the e-tron branding.

It's not that cheap. But significantly less expensive than the full WEC program. Audi have done this as a way to promote their electric cars due in 2018.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

Perhaps the question is if the diesel engine is still competitive and are evaluating the transition costs to another technology ( Hydrogen ? ).

It is not competitive, and that's how the current regulations are. As we all know, the WEC is supposed to have relevance to road cars, and that's very important to Audi. Well, a diesel car with stint length (range) that is shorter than the stints of petrol cars is in no way road car relevant.

Maybe I'm being a little cynical, but it says something about the EoT (and there is more to say). I think we pretty much agree that Audi is looking for competitiveness through aero development, because it's what they have left as per the regulations. But aero development is expensive, and also not very relevant to production cars. And if the regulations evolve they way the ACO plans, with a limit on two aero packages per season and a limit on private testing, Audi might even lose that one opportunity they have, to try and be faster by developing more advanced aero, as artificial as it might be.

[ederss7]

If they say that the technology used is road car relevant, then what's the problem of spending that much money, when the investment will probably pay off in the future?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Dr Ullrich is due to retire after Jan. 1, 2018 anyways. VAG/Audi Sport kept him on until then, even though he's past retirement age and in theory should've left Audi Sport and retired at the end of the 2015 WEC season.

Cost are out of control, Audi dominated the WEC on half the budget they have now just a few years ago, and Toyota were winning races on a fraction of their reported 100 million Euro budget for 2016--and even that 100 million Euros is more than what Audi spent in 2012/13.

The WEC doesn't have the press coverage or mainstream appeal--let alone the money coming in--that F1 or NASCAR have, and Audi and Porsche are spending what a mid-pack F1 team might be spending, or what Ford, Toyota and GM are spending on NASCAR per season, and that's a 36 race season.

I think that Audi may be holding this over the heads of the ACO to show them how fragile the bubble is and that they should be doing something to contain costs and better balance competition while keeping the series relevant with road technologies and allowing some scope for development of tech and the cars themselves, and the sooner they can do this, the better.

It stands to reason that a 75-90 USD budget is more sustainable and easier for the bean-counters to swallow than 125-170 million.

They didn't dominate. In 2012 Toyota won 3 of the 7 races they entered in their first year. The next year Audi won 5 Toyota won only 2, but in 2014, Toyota won 5, Audi won 2.

And they didn't run "half the budget". From racer.com, Audi's lmp1-h budget (from at least 2013/14) was "annually $242 million". That's way more than what you're estimating it at and it goes in line with what's been said before about Audi having the budget of an F1 team.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by ederss7

If they say that the technology used is road car relevant, then what's the problem of spending that much money, when the investment will probably pay off in the future?

It seems diesel will be almost entirely abandoned by VAG (at least the rumors say so), so there is no longer a reason relevance-wise to have a diesel LMP1. Also, Audi wants to win, and that's the best marketing you can get. So what would make sense for Audi is to switch to petrol, or withdraw from the series, especially if the regulations are evolving as projected. And I don't think there is much of a chance Audi would switch to petrol and race Porsche with an identical concept.

[Articus]

Nothing, diesel combustion research with the Audi LMP program will easily find it's way into road cars in Europe where everything is a diesel. NVM dieselgate and all, but VAG electrification is probably targeted at America. I'm not sure diesels are going anywhere in EU and UK. In other parts of the world, nearly every manufacturer is selling diesel cars. It's only america where VAG should pull out. Funny how the world works.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by TF110

They didn't dominate. In 2012 Toyota won 3 of the 7 races they entered in their first year. The next year Audi won 5 Toyota won only 2, but in 2014, Toyota won 5, Audi won 2.

And they didn't run "half the budget". From racer.com, Audi's lmp1-h budget (from at least 2013/14) was "annually $242 million". That's way more than what you're estimating it at and it goes in line with what's been said before about Audi having the budget of an F1 team.

You're talking about 2014, and I think he was talking about pre-2014.

No one is claiming Audi dominated in 2014. They were caught completely off-guard by the late regulation changes and also ended up having very little hybrid power. In 2013 Audi won what it needed to win.

[chernaudi]

And I'm surprised that VAG haven't looked at TMG and see that they've done relatively well on a fraction of the budgets that Audi and Porsche are allegedly spending. If they're so concerned about cost cutting, why not follow the TMG model?

But still, 85 million dollars per season from '11-13 vs at least twice that for '14-present per season, especially when you were winning championships while spending a lot less a few years ago vs being second best now (though IMO the ACO have some to answer for there), if you're a car maker, which figure are you gonna prefer to spend? Now if Audi were winning races and such, I think that they'd be more hesitant to even allow rumors of a pull out to fester, and they'd have less objections to spending that budget.

This just makes me appreciated the ALMS in the early '00s even more than I did back then. Better variety of cars, didn't cost as much to compete, everything just feels a little bit better than it does now.

Even if Audi and Porsche are spending "only" $160+ million a year, that's still way too much for the LMP1 formula, and is only sustainable as long as the car makers want/are willing to dump that money into the series.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by bobec

You're talking about 2014, and I think he was talking about pre-2014.

No one is claiming Audi dominated in 2014. They were caught completely off-guard by the late regulation changes and also ended up having very little hybrid power. In 2013 Audi won what it needed to win.

I put down 2012 and 2013, that's the beginning of LMP1-H, that's the budget for the wec, which chern says they dominated the first two years of an had a budget of around $100 million. Racer.com has a totally different price tag. I'd believe Marshall Pruett over forum talk.

[chernaudi]

Uhm, I believe that Pruett's numbers refer to the post 2014 budgets for both Audi and Porsche...

Either way, a lot of this is the ACO's fault, due to rushing into technologies and not recognizing that all the people that they want to lure in can afford to spend 100 million plus a year. Toyota can barely manage that, though they've been competitive and done well in all but two races this season (Silverstone and Nurburgring).

I really don't think that Audi and Porsche are going twice as fast as Toyota are on twice the budget, now are they? It's diminishing returns, and though I do think that Audi and Porsche can trim the fat a bit, the ACO moving ahead with their agenda with what I consider to be almost reckless abandon has done most of the damage.

And problem is it isn't like it was in 2000-2005, or '06-13, where you can get a ton out of a basic car concept for at least three years with relatively little change. Now, we're seeing teams like Audi and Porsche developing new cars every couple of years and doing extensive facelifts in between. And we saw with Toyota how by doing even the tweaks you usually did and could get away with in earlier eras could get you screwed over if you fall behind someone who does extensive re-works of their cars or builds something new.

The ACO and ill afford to alienate and tick off teams who are in the series now, and they need to make changes to get others in. It's as simple as that. And if that means clamping down on the power of the hybrid systems, ditching the fuel flow meters in favor of air restrictors, going back to 2000mm wide cars, or whatever teams are asking for, then so be it if it makes the series healthier.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Uhm, I believe that Pruett's numbers refer to the post 2014 budgets for both Audi and Porsche...

Either way, a lot of this is the ACO's fault, due to rushing into technologies and not recognizing that all the people that they want to lure in can afford to spend 100 million plus a year. Toyota can barely manage that, though they've been competitive and done well in all but two races this season (Silverstone and Nurburgring).

I really don't think that Audi and Porsche are going twice as fast as Toyota are on twice the budget, now are they? It's diminishing returns, and though I do think that Audi and Porsche can trim the fat a bit, the ACO moving ahead with their agenda with what I consider to be almost reckless abandon has done most of the damage.

And problem is it isn't like it was in 2000-2005, or '06-13, where you can get a ton out of a basic car concept for at least three years with relatively little change. Now, we're seeing teams like Audi and Porsche developing new cars every couple of years and doing extensive facelifts in between. And we saw with Toyota how by doing even the tweaks you usually did and could get away with in earlier eras could get you screwed over if you fall behind someone who does extensive re-works of their cars or builds something new.

The ACO and ill afford to alienate and tick off teams who are in the series now, and they need to make changes to get others in. It's as simple as that. And if that means clamping down on the power of the hybrid systems, ditching the fuel flow meters in favor of air restrictors, going back to 2000mm wide cars, or whatever teams are asking for, then so be it if it makes the series healthier.

I can't disagree on any of this. From mid 2009-ish we began to see thing escalate at a much quicker pace than what had been normal, and after 2011-12 or so, it rocketed twoards the moon. While many are quick to forget the relative lack of parity in the early 2000's due to the superior dominance by Audi and their impeccable reliability.... there were few contenders. Once Peugeot showed up, it all came apart much to out pleasure. Certainly the racing was quite good, the calendars and events were wonderful, and the FIA /ACO benefitted without concern for it's own long-term health.

We are now in a situation that many of us, and others, predicted and had concern over. With LMP-1L being essentially killed off through the ACO's own choice, and the stubbornheadedness to not plan for the future while hoping uncontained growth happens, now find us in a very tenous spot.

Should Audi leave, and nobody replaces them during the 2018 reg-cycle, We have four LMP1 cars. If Toyota win LeMans, I will suggest we will only see two LMP1 car for the 2018 reg-cycle. And Porsche isn't going to spend that money to compete with itself.

Audi knows this. If the ACO values it's own future, and health.. if Audi is attempting to influence the regulations, the ACO better listen to them.

The bubble is on the edge of bursting, and we very well may be left with no P1 in two years.

[TF110]

Pruett said their (Audi's) lmp1-h (which started in 2012) budget was 242 million dollars, annually. That's every year. Not total over the period of how ever many years. The article is pretty clear if you read it. ACO will be sad if Audi leaves, but I doubt it changes their ways. In fact, I think more people join lmp1 with the biggest spenders now gone. Weve seen this for years with people predicting doom and gloom for lmp1 and it hasn't happened.

[chernaudi]

It will happen if car makers see diminishing returns on investment and, in the case of Audi Sport, have seemingly grown increasingly cynical and frustrated at the rules. Cost do need to be cut. But cutting private testing and wind tunnel time and limiting the number of body kits that teams can use every season isn't going to do it.

It's the hybrid tech that's the problem. 2011-13 was sustainable. But with 8MJ being allowed from 2014, plus the switch from air restrictors to fuel flow meters, and from 2000mm wide to 1900mm wide cars, that IMO was too much of a swing at once. Not even some F1 formulae have changed as much going from one set of rules to another. 10MJ and needing new cars for 2018 will only escalate costs, not contain them.

Either the ACO have to learn to stick with a basic set of regs for more than 3 or so years at a time, or phase in changes over a gradual period of time. It's not Audi and Porsche, or even Toyota scaring the others away or leading to protests over cost from those who otherwise desire to enter. It's the cost because of the ACO favoring factory teams over privateers and even going as far as to price other interested car makers out.

Be it budget, BOP, or whatever, if the rumors of the threat of an Audi Sport pull out are true, I hope this is a big wake up call for the ACO and the way that they've done things since 2009.

[TF110]

They're so tired of the rules that they've stayed on for them for what will be 6 years next season . Like Vasselon said, they're fighting hard for 2018 rules. Just to leave? I don't like the skinny tall cars either, but that's not going to be why or if Audi leave.

[ederss7]

I will only believe in these budget numbers when I hear from the own manufacturers telling how much they spend. Also, each team has a different structure behind its operation. From what I remember reading in this thread, Audi pay to use a wind tunnel(Sauber's?), while Toyota apparently have their own wind tunnel. That means the money spent here will be obviously different. Even if we knew the exact budget of each team, it'd still be difficult to tell who developed its car more.

[Mal]

I think diesel has run its course for Audi, but I don't think VAG would want them running the same petrol hybrid technology as Porsche.

At the moment there is no other alternative - so maybe they will pull out until there is that option.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by TF110

Pruett said their (Audi's) lmp1-h (which started in 2012) budget was 242 million dollars, annually. That's every year. Not total over the period of how ever many years. The article is pretty clear if you read it. ACO will be sad if Audi leaves, but I doubt it changes their ways. In fact, I think more people join lmp1 with the biggest spenders now gone. Weve seen this for years with people predicting doom and gloom for lmp1 and it hasn't happened.

No, I wouldn't say the article is very clear on that. "Annual" in this case is merely a projection and it doesn't go back in time. He even calls the budget "current" further down. And he does say the 2014 R18 development was a "great expense". So no, not that clear. And I think it would be foolish to deny the big jump in costs that came with the 2014 regs (no, these are not the same regs for 6 years, but totally different since 2014).

Forum talk? Sure. But no one really has the exact numbers. How would Pruett know? Who is his source? How reliable are they?
And as you can see, Audi did not leave after 2015, as suggested mid-article. All signs are that they were not planning to leave even later down the line, since the current R18 is a pretty new and radical car.

[Spyderman]

There seems to be no decision yet. Discussion MIGHT take place today.
http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...rt-mit-der-wec

[chernaudi]

And it also seems that Joest Racing are hiring mechanics for something, be it the R18 program or not. They're advertising openings right now.

[Hawkwood]

In Audi related news, Rene Rast wants to drive fulltime in the DTM.

On one hand, he knows Audi have split its DTM and sportscar drivers, drivers no longer do both, (so does he know something we don't?), but on the other he was only in the 3rd car (which is off the agenda for the next however long anyway).

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

There seems to be no decision yet. Discussion MIGHT take place today.
http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...rt-mit-der-wec

This latest report is really worrying.

Audi could potentially leave the WEC scene as early at the end of this year ??? That would really be quite a dramatic move...