Audi LMP1 Discussion

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by bobec

Official statement by ACO/WEC

http://www.fiawec.com/en/news/offici...ent-_4512.html

"One door closes and, at the same time, another one opens with the already-announced arrival of other manufacturers."

do we know anything about this?


regarding audi leaving: i've been following le mans since 1995 so almost my entire history with this race has been linked to audi. they were also my favorite car brand since i was a child, so i was very emotional about audi winning (or losing) all the way since 1999. i am really curious to see what attitude will i follow the race now with them not being present anymore, i suppose sometimes being more emotionally detached can be good as well and will certainly make me a more rational observer of the series. i am really proud that they've achieved this majestic page in motorsport history and in my favorite race of them all - le mans, i think their might is undeniable, the way their cars were designed shaped what prototype racing means, they were second to none for so long, they defeated fierce competition in many years and also had some easy wins, but it was a hell of a ride. the win-to-participation ratio of audi at le mans and in prototype racing is, as far as i know, second to none, even to porsche. and the win-to-competition ratio is, unlike many people choose to believe, not lower than any other great manufacturer in the history of the race. so yes, along with porsche and ferrari, i think audi's participation to le mans racing is probably the most legendary in the history of endurance racing.

however, i don't think this will be so disastrous for wec. if the organizers are smart enough to make the best of this turning point, the series could get even more manufacturers involved and a lot of great racing for the future.

personally, i will have my own favorites in the future depending on how things will evolve from now, but surely i won't be so involved as i was about audi. but that's not necessarily something negative.

[littleman]

Well, I just hope Audi invest some money in their UK Dealer Network.

They are absolutely hopeless.The staff are clueless, incompetent and possess zero understanding of what customer service is all about. As soon as you decline their very expensive finance offers they become even less interested.

I've approached at least 5 of their main dealers to purchase a £45k ish SQ5 and everyone of them is just as bad. They're all about shiny presentation, WiFi lounges and absolutely no substance whatsoever.

What's the point in spending hundreds of millions on a motorsport program when it all goes pear shaped as soon as you walk into one of their showrooms.

Not surprisingly, I'm giving up on an SQ5, and any Audi come to that.

[S griffin]

It's a shame Audi are leaving, but they've been in the series a long time and their record has been more impressive than most, so good luck for whatever they do now

[joeb]

Well it took more than 11, 000 posts but the opening post of this thread finally came true.

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by joeb

Well it took more than 11, 000 posts but the opening post of this thread finally came true.

never lose faith eh?

I do have to commend Audi, 17 years in a category (not all continuous 2003-2005 - they were on a customer basis) it is a lot and we rarely see this from manufacturers in any Motorsport category. Only similar efforts recently have been Ferrari in F1, Citroen in WRC and Honda/Yamaha in MotoGP(if I left any out, I am sorry).

However I wonder how Audi will go from now. They usually follow a Motorsport programme that is in touch with their place in the car market: Rally in the 80s, super saloons in the early 90s late 80s and sportscars since. What is left for them? I am not really buying the Formula E as their future. It is a way of keeping in the motorsport media but I do not think this is their future. I still believe they will be looking at endurance or maybe, whisper it, F1. These seem like the only 2 alternatives for Audi if they are looking for a major motorsport programme in the future.

[JRodrigues]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

I do have to commend Audi, 17 years in a category (not all continuous 2003-2005 - they were on a customer basis) it is a lot and we rarely see this from manufacturers in any Motorsport category. Only similar efforts recently have been Ferrari in F1, Citroen in WRC and Honda/Yamaha in MotoGP(if I left any out, I am sorry).

(just to complete the post: Subaru 1990 - 2008, although not full time first years)

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by JRodrigues

(just to complete the post: Subaru 1990 - 2008, although not full time first years)

That is true. I was mainly referring to programmes that are still running(I know Citroen is not official, but they will be back next year)

[JRodrigues]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

That is true. I was mainly referring to programmes that are still running(I know Citroen is not official, but they will be back next year)

Oh, ok!
Ford / M-Sport has been in WRC since 1997 as well. Now reaching their 19th season, if you want to count them.
Ducati on Superbikes since the 80's.
But yeah, not many. And BIG credits to Audi for that. But we all know what happens when they enter some new competition. It has happened in rallying, in touring cars, in endurance/prototype racing: The're in it for the win. And when there is nothing else to win, they find something new to win. What's next? Dakar with the Q2??

[chernaudi]

Some interesting comments on Midweek Motorsports' FB page from (I'm thinking) Hindy on what Audi had planned for the future.

They were designing, if not, testing, a new gasoline engine possibly to have been used in a future LMP1 car if they (Audi Sport and Audi board) thought it was worth continuing. Audi were considering the switch back to gasoline because, even without dieselgate, future NA and EU emissions and fuel economy regs will become increasingly unfavorable to diesels in road car applications, and would increasingly favor hybrids with relatively small forced induction gasoline engines. Hence, marketing the TDI engines beyond a few years for new road car applications would be redundant.

Also, the ACO's techical regs for beyond 2017 were converging on the same thing. Increased reliance on hybrid power, which would make current diesel technology noncompetitive and not worth pursuing.

He also says that even without dieselgate, Audi probably would've stepped aside, at least for a couple of years, anyways, possibly at the end of 2017. That was more or less inevitable, and that Audi Sport might have supported a program for LMP1 branded as Bentley or maybe Lamborghini, though the cost cutting at VAG for the near future has delayed any such plans.

Also, interestingly, Audi alone also invests more in factories and buildings even now than BMW or Daimler do within Germany as well.

Also, from the same discussion, Daimler are also getting hammered with fines and lawsuits over their own screwing around with cheating regs, for both road car diesels and especially their truck and heavy vehicle diesels. Which seems to show that the decision to by Audi to pull out of the WEC for the foreseeable future being in large part about politics (not just within VAG, but also between Audi Sport and the ACO it seems), as well as diminishing returns on investment due to rising costs and maybe even the lack of an interesting technical direction for Audi to go until hydrogen fuel cells become viable and affordable. And that, of course, is a few years away.

[TzeiTzei]

Audi fuel cell garage 56. You read it first here

[PhilipR]

I hope they do come back.

I hope it was in their planning to take 2 years off after 2017 to prepare and entirely new engine(they did the same between the r8 and r10, only then it was easier to run an r8 as a customer team), and they took the decision a year earlier in the face of DieselGate and maybe seeing that next year the rules will still not help them(stint length- refuelling time). Also the fact that they are keeping all the staff might indicate towards a potential return soon.

Here is hoping for their return around 2020 and for the entry of other manufacturers as well.

[JRodrigues]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

Audi fuel cell garage 56. You read it first here

Some time ago, before all of these rumours, I posted the same thing here but somehow it didn't get published (something about admin having to approve my post).

But Audi is starting to bet on fuel cells, as it has already presented some prototypes for this kind of technology.
h-tron quattro concept
A7 h-tron quattro

I also believe this will be the future and not battery packs, so I'm hoping Audi will come back with this for Le Mans/endurance racing.

[Gingers4Justice]

The other thing I picked up from MWM is that Audi had already announced the increased Formula E effort anyway. That means that Audi is NOT leaving the WEC for Formula E. They were stepping up their involvement long before the decision to quit the WEC was made.

I found that very interesting indeed - it's almost like they were trying to prove a point to the ACO. Twisting it to make it seem like they were leaving to do electric racing. Electric racing. That's where the future is at, Audi says. They're leaving Le Mans to do electric racing. Bye ACO. Electric. Racing.

Am I doing the classic forum thing and reading way too much between the lines, or are Audi semi-hinting that they're return to LMP1 if electric racers become permitted? And maybe I detect a little frustration that this doesn't appear on the horizon in the short-term? That's already the condition BMW have layed down. And Audi are retaining a LOT of highly skilled staff to put stickers on a battery-powered spec racer.

[JRodrigues]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

The other thing I picked up from MWM is that Audi had already announced the increased Formula E effort anyway. That means that Audi is NOT leaving the WEC for Formula E. They were stepping up their involvement long before the decision to quit the WEC was made.

I found that very interesting indeed - it's almost like they were trying to prove a point to the ACO. Twisting it to make it seem like they were leaving to do electric racing. Electric racing. That's where the future is at, Audi says. They're leaving Le Mans to do electric racing. Bye ACO. Electric. Racing.

Am I doing the classic forum thing and reading way too much between the lines, or are Audi semi-hinting that they're return to LMP1 if electric racers become permitted? And maybe I detect a little frustration that this doesn't appear on the horizon in the short-term? That's already the condition BMW have layed down. And Audi are retaining a LOT of highly skilled staff to put stickers on a battery-powered spec racer.

Fuel Cells. The future is fuel cells. And they (Audi) are betting on it (they've presented some h-tron concepts already). I'd said it before rumours came around but it seems some of my posts aren't posted. I agree with PhilipR and believe they will come back

h-tron concept
A7 h-tron concept

[GasperG]

EV = Sprint race
Hybrid = Endurance race

This will be a fact for many years to come

[TzeiTzei]

From the organisation's point of view it is hard to view FE as a replacement or alternative to WEC. It's a spec chassis series with some freedom of development on the power train side. I kind of doubt that there is that much to do for the LMP1 team in the Formula E project.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by GasperG

EV = Sprint race
Hybrid = Endurance race

This will be a fact for many years to come

I hadn't thought about different technologies for different race lengths. That is an interesting idea. By sprint races do you mean the 6 hours, or a new format?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by GasperG

EV = Sprint race
Hybrid = Endurance race

This will be a fact for many years to come

Depends on whether some tracks are brave enough to implement charging pads in the track surface for wireless charging...

[500]

It is too bad from a fan’s perspective that Audi is leaving.

However, it seemed inevitable to me that VAG would eventually settle on only one LMP1 program. From a marketing benefit, the big value of the WEC is Le Mans… win Le Mans and you get most of marketing benefit. All the other WEC races are important to fans like us, but are relatively obscure to most of the public.

If you are VAG, paying for two programs in which you KNOW that, at best, only one of your manufacturers can have that big win, becomes a pretty expensive undertaking. The decline as diesel as a road car staple, combined with the emissions scandal are exacerbating factors. Even without those though, having two LMP1 efforts “in house” seems strange.

It does make sense that VAG diversify its racing investment across many series. Could an Audi F1 power unit come back on the table?

Also, agree that FE is essentially a spec series, but the general public does not really focus on that. Other manufacturers are already putting their hats in the ring.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Depends on whether some tracks are brave enough to implement charging pads in the track surface for wireless charging...

I would generally think the efficiency is to poor for inductive charging that this would not be a viable solution (and still have my doubts), but apparently people are working on this for road cars.

Richard

[chernaudi]

Now for some memory lane trips:

Another trip down memory lane. If people are missing the Audi Sport presence already in the WEC and Le Mans (and they're not officially gone yet), imagine not hearing a gasoline engine in an Audi LMP car for over a decade.

Audio from an Audi R8, from an old Audi CD album featuing engine noises and commentary about their racing cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzBw...FLWbgT9RHpQZuA

And the now legendary sub-5 minute gearbox changes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKjVQbYcTiY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgl9y7jmdxE

[ederss7]

Amazing videos. And that is one of the reasons why they've never had a terminal failure at Le Mans with the Joest team, apart from a wheel coming off in 2007.
And according to a quote after the race, both R8s gearboxes were changed "just to be safe", obviously they could afford the change. Even with the R8R in 1999 they managed to do the change, as can be seen in the highlights of that year's race.

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

... imagine not hearing a gasoline engine in an Audi LMP car for over a decade.

Find a way to to get to some of the southern historic events. Road Atlanta, Sebring, etc. There is always at least one 2005 R8.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by ederss7

Amazing videos. And that is one of the reasons why they've never had a terminal failure at Le Mans with the Joest team, apart from a wheel coming off in 2007.
And according to a quote after the race, both R8s gearboxes were changed "just to be safe", obviously they could afford the change. Even with the R8R in 1999 they managed to do the change, as can be seen in the highlights of that year's race.

The gearbox changes actually weren't due to gearbox troubles. That year Audi were having trouble (known since the LM test day) with rear suspension joints wearing out and failing quickly, especially if the cars were driven over curbs aggressively. The #9 Audi ramped a curb and spun, and that ultimately damaged the suspension, and the #7 cut down a tire, and that damaged the suspension. It was just quicker to change the gearbox assembly than it was to change the damaged part.

Other than that, 99% of the time that Audi used the quick change rear end was to do servicing between sessions or after an accident.

Of course, the ACO banned it, but even then it was very quick to repair the R8's gearbox or rear suspension, and from the R10 onwards Audi developed a gearbox that could be disassembled and put back together in about as much time as it took to change the rear on the R8--Champion got it down to sub-5 minutes to change out the guts on the R10's gearbox in the ALMS.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Of course, the ACO banned it, but even then it was very quick to repair the R8's gearbox or rear suspension, and from the R10 onwards Audi developed a gearbox that could be disassembled and put back together in about as much time as it took to change the rear on the R8--Champion got it down to sub-5 minutes to change out the guts on the R10's gearbox in the ALMS.

If by designed, you mean they looked at Sprint Cars and how quick change gearsets work then stole those ideas and turned them into their own.

Audi looked at many, many, many forms of motorsport while designing the serviceability of the R8.