[WEC] Glickenhaus Hypercar

[J Jay]

Traction advantages in all conditions in return for running a more complex (and more prone-to-failure) drivetrain seems fine to me, although I wouldn't lose any sleep if AWD were limited to dry running. Of course, with a lap as long as La Sarthe, the track could be declared wet when more than half of it is bone dry. All I can see are the goalposts being moved from the track to race control.

Good to see insider support for more power, the obvious solution to class stratification issues. If LMDh are all running turbo engines (IIRC, they are so far?), then they could receive a boost for WEC races; it's not exactly fair in terms of design, but the engines should be able to cope. With power being so rigidly controlled in both regs, none of these blocks are being run to their absolute limits, as Jim has just confirmed.

[Adam43]

The AWD is limited to over 120km/h. IIRC. Which is about 75mph. Which isn’t that high - my point being in the dry most corners will be over this for these cars.

Which corners is the Glickenhaus traction limited on the exit of when the speed is over this? (In the wet).

[Pandamasque]

That depends how wet it is. I've seen the Muslanne straight being traction limited. Also, let's not forget it's a championship with different tracks in it. ACO needs to find one solution that works for all.

Originally Posted by Napolis

We think AWD should not be allowed until track is fully dry.

Do you think simply raising minimum deployment speed to 150km/h or even 180km/h won't do the trick? I can't imagine manufacturers being okay with your solution. They'd hate commentators saying things like "race declared wet, hybrid power is now disallowed", from the PR standpoint.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Traction advantages in all conditions in return for running a more complex (and more prone-to-failure) drivetrain seems fine to me, although I wouldn't lose any sleep if AWD were limited to dry running. Of course, with a lap as long as La Sarthe, the track could be declared wet when more than half of it is bone dry. All I can see are the goalposts being moved from the track to race control.

Good to see insider support for more power, the obvious solution to class stratification issues. If LMDh are all running turbo engines (IIRC, they are so far?), then they could receive a boost for WEC races; it's not exactly fair in terms of design, but the engines should be able to cope. With power being so rigidly controlled in both regs, none of these blocks are being run to their absolute limits, as Jim has just confirmed.

We could easily run at 800 HP in endurance tune.
I very much doubt LMDh can run anywhere close to that..

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Do you think simply raising minimum deployment speed to 150km/h or even 180km/h won't do the trick? I can't imagine manufacturers being okay with your solution. They'd hate commentators saying things like "race declared wet, hybrid power is now disallowed", from the PR standpoint.

I think this is the tricky bit. If you only deploy hybrid through the front wheels then when you disallow AWD you stop all hybrid and put those cars at a disadvantage.

They could still have the same output power (I am sure the Toyota engine could still have the same power curve without hybrid), but it stops being as efficient and the rest of the BoP puts it at a disadvantage. For example their stint lengths could reduce. More brake wear could be a factor too.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Napolis

We could easily run at 800 HP in endurance tune.
I very much doubt LMDh can run anywhere close to that..

I agree, but I don't think 700hp (520kW) is out of reach for LMDh. Add on the 30kW spec hybrid, and that's your 550kW. That would be enough for a significant gap to LMP2 without slowing them down any more. A 70hp bump from their IMSA spec would raise some eyebrows, but it's not outrageous.

What bothers me is that ACO/IMSA must have seen this coming, and discussed this in convergence meetings. I wouldn't be surprised to see movement on the power limits in both series from 2023 and beyond. There is already scope for hypercars to run as low as 480kW if necessary, although I hope it doesn't come to that.

[canaglia]

as far I remember about lmdh, combined power should be something like 630hp from ICE + 40hp from spec hybrid.

Nothing is impossible, at the end it's all about a cost managment issue, guess nobody among US teams and manufacturers want more powerful spec ERS because otherwise it would be more expensive, at the same time more powerful engines would require more expensive racing parts updates considering that honda, cadillac engines are street derivated and very likely porsche/audi too.

[J Jay]

It is 500kW total (470kW engine + 30kW hybrid), so it matches up with hypercar's "middle" output of 500kW total. In theory, it all makes sense, which is one of the reasons both series may be reluctant to give blanket increases to power.

Besides power, the tyres could also play a part in any pace deficit/improvement. We know Michelin are actively developing theirs to be more suitable for RWD-only (especially) and AWD hypercars.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by J Jay

It is 500kW total (470kW engine + 30kW hybrid), so it matches up with hypercar's "middle" output of 500kW total. In theory, it all makes sense, which is one of the reasons both series may be reluctant to give blanket increases to power.

Besides power, the tyres could also play a part in any pace deficit/improvement. We know Michelin are actively developing theirs to be more suitable for RWD-only (especially) and AWD hypercars.

yes, but you're forgetting a little detail: LMH have 670-700hp all the time, no matter if hybrid or ICE only, lmdh will have 670hp only for a short period when ERS boost is released, when ERS boost fades away lmdh will have 630hp, basically the same range of power of nowaday dpi.
A deficit in a range of 40-70hp is a big issue considering lmdh will be 1030kg heavy too and designed on similiar LMH aero rules.
Lmdh will be nowhere close to LMH about max potential power output, also because LMH are bespoke engines restricted to 700hp, lmdh will likely keep on using street derivated engines to keep costs as low as possible to let customers run their car on affordable costs.

[Adam43]

I thought they were matching the power curves of LMDh to be similar to that of the hyper car. As here: http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...y_04082021.pdf

Seems achievable. As long as the battery and regen is up to it. There seems to be a surfeit of manufacturers that reckon it’ll be OK. This later point gives me some confidence of this.

Going higher than that might be a problem, but as we stand, those powers don’t seem unreasonable from a road car based engine.

[canaglia]

The bop LMH power curve tells the amount of power at a given % of max rpm, it's basically a way to balance different engines to don't let low-mid rpm high torque release engines having big advantages, which is quite easy when there are two 3.5L turbo to balance, but more complicated to do when there is also a NA 4.5L that will pay a deficit of power and torque anyhow with the lighter nature of the car as the only balancing/compensation factor.
I don't think that curve could be much relevant if 2023 bop will give full-time 670-700hp to LMH when lmdh will be stuck however to 630+40hp.
Of course lmdh engines could be updated to be in range of >650hp from ICE alone, but it's up to manufacturers more than sport/tech regs.

[Adam43]

Exactly!

None of them are full time 700hp. Only when they are at those revs. So it’s not a stretch to achieve the same with the start point being what we already currently have plus a bit of hybrid. It’s in the same ball park. I know it’s a flippant think to say, but it is only a few tens of hp.

All the new entrants seem happy enough to commit to the series. This suggests nothing is way out.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Exactly!

None of them are full time 700hp. Only when they are at those revs. So it’s not a stretch to achieve the same with the start point being what we already currently have plus a bit of hybrid. It’s in the same ball park. I know it’s a flippant think to say, but it is only a few tens of hp.

All the new entrants seem happy enough to commit to the series. This suggests nothing is way out.

have some breaking news for you...
even lmdh engines aren't full time 630hp but only when revving high close to redline... like... well, you know... like basically each engine powering each car in the world....



manufacturers entering in lmdh are happy because they can compete in top class both in WEC and IMSA spending a reasonably low budget.
As Jim said, lmdh engines will be however less powerful than LMH engines due lmdh cheaper nature, it's up to bop find a way to balance everything.
Will this balance really be found? Impossible to tell today, but I realistically don't expect lmdh being able to compete against LMH as equals, because of politics reasons before any technical matter.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by canaglia

have some breaking news for you...
even lmdh engines aren't full time 630hp but only when revving high close to redline... like... well, you know... like basically each engine powering each car in the world....



manufacturers entering in lmdh are happy because they can compete in top class both in WEC and IMSA spending a reasonably low budget.
As Jim said, lmdh engines will be however less powerful than LMH engines due lmdh cheaper nature, it's up to bop find a way to balance everything.
Will this balance really be found? Impossible to tell today, but I realistically don't expect lmdh being able to compete against LMH as equals, because of politics reasons before any technical matter.

^tru.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by canaglia

have some breaking news for you...

There is no need for that tone. It is extremely tiresome.

I’ve deleted my response, which points out how I mainly agree, because I have realised I have no interest in discussing this with you. I was merely discussing.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Adam43

There is no need for that tone. It is extremely tiresome. If you don’t want a conversation fine. Just ignore me.

I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just developing this as a discussion.

Did I tell anything wrong or vaguely offensive maybe?
Seriously you are complaining about tone?


Aside a recurrent trolling attitude of yours towards me, just 2 weeks ago without even verifying what actually was happening, you publicly accused me of making superficial judgments and then after realizing how you were wrong, you prefered edit your post instead of apologise to me...
so, please don't get it bad, but at the moment I think you're not exactly in my top10 of users who can complain about other users tone....

[Adam43]

I suggest it is time to move on…

Post was edited to encourage moving on. No other reason.

I suggest that moving on is what is needed now. For everyone’s sake.

[Adam43]

Jim’s views that he has said here also in Autosport:
https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/g...flaws/6659550/

It is mentioned how Toyota grew its advantage early on. You can see that here: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...96#post4071696

It did keep pulling out after, but at a lesser rate. And the relative pace between Rebellion and Alpine isn’t always the same. Although that isn’t that easy to follow with the SC, the odd problem and the shorter stints of the Alpine. Later in the race Toyota started having it’s problems and you see the reverse.

[S griffin]

Yes, great insight there from Jim. Shows that he is aware of what he is up against

[Pandamasque]

Just FYI, there's a Pipo Dirani interview in this week's Midweek Motorsport podcast.
http://www.radiolemans.co/2021/09/01...sport-s16-e34/

[TF110]

Toyota was faster in all conditions than anything out there. They had the fastest car and that's how they won it. Imo, if bop comes into play, it won't happen for Glickenhaus until next year unless he changes it up and goes to Bahrain. I think theres a middle east market for his cars. They've got a lot of higher end clients out in the region so I hope they can contest a full WEC season next year.

[Adam43]

Might there be a BoP announcement that includes the Glickenhaus even if they aren't there? I seem to recall that we've had BoP announcements despite missing cars before (in GT?).

[Adam43]

Below is a comparison of the driver performance for the two cars at Le Mans.

The chart shows the average lap time of each driver and how that develops by their fastest laps. i.e. who is more consistent.

In the 708 you can see that Pla had the fastest lap, and he was quickest over the best 5 laps each driver had. Over the best 83 Derani was more consistent.

When the average lap time drops off it will be down to how many laps they did with slow zones, FCY, SC etc...

The 709 had the fastest laps, but the 708 becomes as consistent as the laps are added to the average.

708:

Driver	Fastest Lap		Ave. Top 10		Ave. Top 50
Olivier PLA	3:30.102	0.000	3:31.284	0.384	3:32.961	0.661
Franck MAILLEUX	3:31.628	1.526	3:32.137	1.237	3:33.581	1.281
Luis Felipe DERANI	3:30.251	0.149	3:30.900	0.000	3:32.300	0.000

709:

Driver	Fastest Lap		Ave. Top 10		Ave. Top 50
Richard WESTBROOK	3:30.654	1.227	3:31.838	1.289	3:33.447	0.791
Romain DUMAS	3:29.427	0.000	3:30.549	0.000	3:32.656	0.000
Ryan BRISCOE	3:30.067	0.640	3:30.987	0.438	3:33.224	0.568

[Pandamasque]

Interesting how by the end of the race the #709 ended up the faster car of the two. What was the issue that it struggled with in the first half of the race losing all that ground to #708?

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Interesting how by the end of the race the #709 ended up the faster car of the two. What was the issue that it struggled with in the first half of the race losing all that ground to #708?

We're crunching data but neither car had any issues. Traffic? Safety car? FCY? Cars are fast and reliable. If we get a fair BOP we'll challenge for the win. Things are going well. We can sell cars. We need to expand productive capacity. We're going to expand our US factory and look into building cars for UK and EU in Italy.