LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[PorscheFanNo1]

When Grand-Am ran 4 chassi limit for Daytona Prototypes, where there actually at any time 4 different chassies racing?
I remember the Multimatic for example didnt race for many years, then it did a one off in just one race, just so they could keep the contract (otherwise they would be excluded as one of the 4 manufacturers the next year).
I also think one of the others, like the Coyote, had the same problem during many years, no one wanted to run them.

If we have a limit of 4 chassies, we could very well be in a situation where only 2 chassies are being used around the world, cause the others are just not competetive, and when no one buys them, they dont have an income to develop them, so they get left behind until someone with money comes along looking for an opening to develop a chassie.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

When Grand-Am ran 4 chassi limit for Daytona Prototypes, where there actually at any time 4 different chassies racing?
I remember the Multimatic for example didnt race for many years, then it did a one off in just one race, just so they could keep the contract (otherwise they would be excluded as one of the 4 manufacturers the next year).
I also think one of the others, like the Coyote, had the same problem during many years, no one wanted to run them.

If we have a limit of 4 chassies, we could very well be in a situation where only 2 chassies are being used around the world, cause the others are just not competetive, and when no one buys them, they dont have an income to develop them, so they get left behind until someone with money comes along looking for an opening to develop a chassie.

Grand Am started with seven eligible DP chassis and afaik all raced at some time - some, like Piccio, very badly(several of the drivers refused to drive it). After time the dogs died out and left the 3 survivors, Riley being the most prolific. It seems that 4 chassis is a little restrictive - start with more and let natural selection take it's course.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Rcz

I do wonder how this will work out. What will the ACO LMP2 cars look like? Will they look like as the current P2 cars look like? What kind of areo limitations will be put on the cars. Will the drag coefficient be the same as IMSA P2 cars for better BOPing?

Also what kind of engine regs will IMSA be using?

I do wish they simply remove the 4 chassis limit. They already have P3 now. With 4 chassis to pick there will be still winners and losers eventually. If you wanted a more even playing field why don't they just go all spec already like GP2?

It's because they want a solution to all things, they want a more cheaper and fairer like a spec series.
But want to still appease the fans and still be within the spirt of Lemans, so they compromise with this 4 chosen chassis limit.

I'm guessing the new chevy bodywork (they are the only ones to express interest so far) will look less like a Corvette DP, and more like a revised P2 (maybe something like the Aston Lola?).

The engine regs could be key for this class, hopefully they don't make it too restrictive and allow different displacements, cylinder counts, turbos, normally aspirated, etc. If the current crop of engines in IMSA is anything to go by I think it will work out just fine.

[Maelochs]

After DP 2 Riley was about all anyone wanted. WTR stuck with Dallara, Krohn ran Lola, and SDR (or whatever name) ran Coyote ... pretty much anyone who wanted to win consistently went with Riley--or so went the perception (anyone surprised krohn only won once--in Any chassis (or surpiorsed they even won once?)

In a four-builder scenario we could reasonably have Oak and Oreca, and if one is better than the other (or perceived to be better) we could have a one-make series---which is probably what FIA-ACO wants anyway.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

After DP 2 Riley was about all anyone wanted. WTR stuck with Dallara, Krohn ran Lola, and SDR (or whatever name) ran Coyote ... pretty much anyone who wanted to win consistently went with Riley--or so went the perception (anyone surprised krohn only won once--in Any chassis (or surpiorsed they even won once?)

In a four-builder scenario we could reasonably have Oak and Oreca, and if one is better than the other (or perceived to be better) we could have a one-make series---which is probably what FIA-ACO wants anyway.

Sure, as I said - there are only 3 DP survivors and I'll bet no new ones being made. Riley definitely won the sales wars and indeed, I wouldn't be surprised to see them as the NA P2 builder - they need something to replace that business and TUSCC will be a great market for them. Across the pond there doesn't look to be much viable competition for Oak and Oreca and likely one will ultimately dominate. De facto spec series. At least here in the US we'll have some engine variety in the gen V DPs as well as the corvette, accord, Gt40 etc. bodywork.

[Rcz]

IMSA needs and should ditch the 4 manufacturer. They need as many builders as possible, more then the WEC and ELMS series. Especially America ones.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Rcz

IMSA needs and should ditch the 4 manufacturer. They need as many builders as possible, more then the WEC and ELMS series. Especially America ones.

Why? If all the chassis, or most of them are gonna be buried under some fake Corvette bodies (has anyone else than GM even shown interest???) what does it matter how many chassis constructors there are, they're not even gonna get their names mentioned. They're not called Coyote-Corvettes or Dallara-Corvettes or whatever in DP, just Corvettes.

So you end up having grid filled up with "Corvettes" no matter what's under, and then couple of other names.

[Deleted]

For the first time since 2012 or 2013 (?) ACO has listed the P2 air restrictor changes on public document as reminder. Don't think they've messed around with them
http://www.fia.com/file/26636/download?token=qV1-xY1e

Additionally the fuel restrictor is set at 28mm, 5mm lower than for LMP1.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Additionally the fuel restrictor is set at 28mm, 5mm lower than for LMP1.

Sorry meant 5mm lower than for P1 privateer, it's 2,05-3mm bigger than for LMP1 factories. Once again the misleading ACO class titles have confused me, as the document in question said LMP1 Hybrid and LMP1 separately

One may make comparisons to USA (Sebring)
HPD +2,5mm air & +5mm fuel
Judd +3,4mm air & 5mm fuel

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Sorry meant 5mm lower than for P1 privateer, it's 2,05-3mm bigger than for LMP1 factories. Once again the misleading ACO class titles have confused me, as the document in question said LMP1 Hybrid and LMP1 separately

One may make comparisons to USA (Sebring)
HPD +2,5mm air & +5mm fuel
Judd +3,4mm air & 5mm fuel

Yes the Judd and HPD were sped up for Sebring to keep up with the DP engines, but that matters little to the WEC or ELMS.

What is the difference in the Nissan restrictors for - what does 8CW vs 4CW mean?

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Why? If all the chassis, or most of them are gonna be buried under some fake Corvette bodies (has anyone else than GM even shown interest???) what does it matter how many chassis constructors there are, they're not even gonna get their names mentioned. They're not called Coyote-Corvettes or Dallara-Corvettes or whatever in DP, just Corvettes.

So you end up having grid filled up with "Corvettes" no matter what's under, and then couple of other names.

That's true if some teams have Chevy engines.

You know what, IMSA should have either ditch the 4 chassis constructor limit rule, or give Oreca and OAK the finger by choosing Riley as the sole supplier for LMP2 compliant chassis.

Either way, it'll be covered up by manufacturer-specific bodywork!

[joeb]

I'm hoping we get some news on which manufacturers are decided on making bodykits once the regs are officially released.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by joeb

I'm hoping we get some news on which manufacturers are decided on making bodykits once the regs are officially released.

I wouldn't expect too many given the small market, we're not going to see 30 Gen V DP's in TUSCC, 10 would be big.

[Deleted]

My guesses for bodywork builders

- Chevrolet
- Corvette
- Pratt & Miller
- General Motors

[joeb]

Originally Posted by wdave0

I wouldn't expect too many given the small market, we're not going to see 30 Gen V DP's in TUSCC, 10 would be big.

Chevy is the only OEM to express interest in the bodykits so far, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see some Mazda bodykits and a longshot would be Ford and BMW and HPD. But as you say, the problem is the new rules aren't likely to bring any new teams into the fray.

I'm also interested to see if the new engine regs bring any more engine manufacturers to the series. Chevy will still be here, but will Ford? Mazda will be here as well. Maybe BMW, HPD, Nissan?

[Speed-King]

But as you say, the problem is the new rules aren't likely to bring any new teams into the fray

That's one of my biggest concerns with TUSC at the moment. There seems to be no indication whatsoever of any teams looking to join the prototype ranks. Back in the day, in ALMS as well as in GA there usually were some rumors about new teams coming in, not all of them materializing eventually, but at least there was some interest. With TUSC right now there seems to be none of that, so if anything numbers will be shrinking as sportscar teams have a tendency of fizzling out over time.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That's one of my biggest concerns with TUSC at the moment. There seems to be no indication whatsoever of any teams looking to join the prototype ranks. Back in the day, in ALMS as well as in GA there usually were some rumors about new teams coming in, not all of them materializing eventually, but at least there was some interest. With TUSC right now there seems to be none of that, so if anything numbers will be shrinking as sportscar teams have a tendency of fizzling out over time.

For the past few years we have occasionally heard rumblings of an Indy team running a P2. But this year it has dimmed to maybe a resurrection of the HPD. And on that front perhaps ESM will come back in a year or two. maybe a PC team gets the urge to run a p2 in 17 but that is a big investment.

[Bob Baldwin]

joeb: A big investment for 2017 ? Perhaps . We as a team are waiting to see how 2016 goes before green lighting our immersion into the 2017 season . As options BES and WEC are looking better every day .

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by joeb

I'm also interested to see if the new engine regs bring any more engine manufacturers to the series. Chevy will still be here, but will Ford? Mazda will be here as well. Maybe BMW, HPD, Nissan?

Mazda won't have the money to make their body kits unlike Chevrolet. Ford meanwhile might not provide both engines and body kits to prototype teams due to their Ford GT program. As for Nissan, BMW, and Honda (HPD), I don't think they'll make body kits.

Good thing IMSA didn't tell the manufacturers yet that it's mandatory to have body kits on LMP2 cars or it'll be a nightmare!

[wdave0]

I think it is telling that the de facto Ford factory car (Ganassi) is running basically generic Riley bodywork. One additional thought is that for body kits to really work the new chassis spec has to accommodate interchangeable bodywork, or more likely one (the NA?) maker will offer sanctioned and subsidized choices from interested marques.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by wdave0

I think it is telling that the de facto Ford factory car (Ganassi) is running basically generic Riley bodywork. One additional thought is that for body kits to really work the new chassis spec has to accommodate interchangeable bodywork, or more likely one (the NA?) maker will offer sanctioned and subsidized choices from interested marques.

The way I see it is an OEM, lets say Chevy, picks a chassis manufacturer to work with, lets say Oreca. So if you want to run the Chevy package stateside you have to run the Oreca chassis. I don't believe we will have a situation where the Chevy bodywork will be able to be placed on another chassis. So the bodywork wouldn't be interchangeable, but it would be an alternate setup for a given chassis.

[Maelochs]

Current "Corvette" bodywork fits Coyote, Riley, and Dallara chassis, no reason it won't fit the new p2 chassis. particularly since the new chassis might be a clone chassis like all the DP chassis were.

[BullMan]

http://sportscar365.com/industry/coy...017-lmp2-regs/

Asking Gary Nelson about a 2017 P2 is like asking WTR about the rulebook.

Note to Gary Nelson: progress has already happened. Grand-Am just chose to stay in the stone age. Scott Atherton has already said that TUSC won’t be running anything other than the 4 ACO chassis. I guess Coyote can build the lame “manufacturer” bodywork, but ACO isn’t going to give the North American contract to a company that has never even seen a carbon tub before.
Remember folks, Gary Nelson is a former NASCAR crew chief, NASCAR Cup series director, and he runs a DP team funded in part by NASCAR. Of course he doesn’t have a clue about carbon fiber.

[carbsmith]

Coyote doesn't have any customers, the cars roll out of one shop straight into the one next door with the same personnel. That entire interview is such a load.

What's actually happening here is that the France cartel wants to keep running house cars but Coyote is too incompetent to build P2s. That's why they floated the stupid idea to share building a car among different US constructors so they could still control it. I don't know why people complain so much about ORECA and the ACO being in bed and ignore what a joke the US side is.

Notice what that interview basically tells us is that GM isn't anything resembling committed to the 2017 prototype rules and Jim France is still trying to talk them into it again before Coyote will do anything. Everything happens just because he wants Corvette prototypes in his series.

[Bob Baldwin]

Correct me if I am wrong But it seems to me that Coyote / Gary Nelson concerns is the viability from a Business standpoint of having to deal with the CF tubs . Swapping from all steel to CF and its related costs of various molds etc; while still staying under the cost caps . You have to wonder if Riley , Multimatic , Dallara whomever will have the same issues ? Nelson is pretty much saying for his company and the costs involved ,it may take him out of the game . Yet to some extent the above mentioned companies do at least some outsourcing .
I guess like Gary we will have to wait till June release of all pertinent information .
I would like to see the same comments from the above mentioned MFG's