History of a Lola T492 Sports 2000 chassis?

[911thillclimber]

He says the replacement car was in 1980, interesting!
But:
If the original orange car was HU 42 then the replacement car would be HU 'later' and have it's own number, maybe from the bulk purchase on the records shipped to HAAS.

Left Lola late '79 plus the sea shipping = 1980.

[Clive Brown]

What is strange is that according to one source, HU42 was the last orange car, and it went to the US, yet according to another source, another T492, also orange, went to the States as a replacement for HU42, which was a total loss. Therefore, where does HUlater appear on Lola's sales ledger?

[911thillclimber]

Yes, as confusing as ever.

The USA Sport 2000 site is where i've had the response to HU 42 being stolen/burnt out and the '1980' replacement. That contact is going to discuss it with the original owner of HU 42.
That will be interesting, esp if he says it went back to the UK.

The original and total Lola sales record has no orange bodied cars after HU 42.
Maybe the replacement was a different colour. Golden Yellow etc.

I have woken-up the sport 2000 site in the UK (where I'm lovingly known as The Butcher for some reason...) and one there is looking deeper into the 80's when S2000 was at its height.

This is the strange bit:

If my Lola was in the USA for 80/81/82/83/84/85 ish then it was not raced in the UK.
If my orange Lola was raced in the UK (ie it never went to the USA) then nobody seems to remember it on Sports 2000.

This tends to lean you to it was a USA car imported to the UK.

I'm not sure if we are getting closer or diverging down another track, but certainly not a dead-end!

I hope both these gents can open the door we need to pass through to get to the answer.

From America:


Graham,

The original orange car that came to the US was for John Cahill arriving here is '78. That car was stolen, burned and replaced with another orange T492 via Haas in 1979 I believe. He ran that car for only a year or so and sold it. I'll ask if he has anymore details.

[Clive Brown]

....but if the replacement for HU42 was not orange when it left the Lola factory, how come the car had orange bodywork by the time it came into Dennis's hands in 1985?

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

....but if the replacement for HU42 was not orange when it left the Lola factory, how come the car had orange bodywork by the time it came into Dennis's hands in 1985?

Remember the car has evidence of an accident, could it be replacement bodywork?

[911thillclimber]

It has been repaired for something quite hard. The side pontoon OF THE GHIA BODY conversion was catch and partly hammered (tapped) out but the steel rear bulkhead to the side of the rear wishbone has been neatly replaced. On the Lola this rear bulkhead is one single sheet of steel.
In the pic below the run of pop rivits directly vertically above the lower radius arm mount should not be there. The panel of steel to the right of the rivits is a replacement
I doubt the two repairs are linked.
The Ghia side pontoon denting looks like storage damage to me. The whole underside of the tub has evidence of trailer scraping and offs.

The USA owner of HU 42 John Cahill was quite a figure in the early S2000 racing with several Lola's after the 492 plus some strange stuff.
I will try to get in touch with him myself. I have a lead to follow.

[911thillclimber]

Just had a call from Dennis H and then to his old friend who went with Dennis to buy the Clubmans car.
After a delightful conversation with Len he gave me a few extra details, and is on the 'case' also!
I'll have everyone hunting with me soon on this little car...

The place was closer to a free holding round the back of Brighton with outbuildings. There were other bits and pieces of FF cars there as well as the two cars.
He remembers the Lola did have an orange body, but remembers the engine prob had twin carbs, and was not sure it was a simple Pinto (ie Sport 2000 spec).

That is interesting as many USA S2000's got modified to twin webers etc. while the UK cars kept to the stock Ford weber.

Len has a very long background in UK motorport and will ask around with those around that area at the time.

Could the man with the two cars at the 'farm' have been an old race car parts 'dealer'??

[Nordic]

Is it possible when the car was stolen and burnt out, the orange body was not on it?

The replacement was supplied without a body or the new body was sold on.

Another possibility is that the stolen/burnt car was only lightly damaged, repaired then sold.

[911thillclimber]

There are several possibilities from this period.

The Lola sales show all car sold with bodies. These are all new cars, but HU 42 (currently the unproven hot favourite) was lost and maybe the replacement was shipped chassis number free, took HU 42 as a replacement to the original.
Not sure how these things are worked out, esp back then.

Key to this line of thinking is John Cahill in the USA. I hope time will have a statement from him on HU 42 and it's replacement and that car's history. Maybe it is zinging round Laguna Seca or an autocross somewhere there.
At least that would eliminate that only large framed T 492 orange car built from the chase.

So close, but still so far.

I've used this symbol a lot on here ( ) about sums-up where I am, going round in circles.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by 911thillclimber

There are several possibilities from this period.

The Lola sales show all car sold with bodies. These are all new cars, but HU 42 (currently the unproven hot favourite) was lost and maybe the replacement was shipped chassis number free, took HU 42 as a replacement to the original.
Not sure how these things are worked out, esp back then.

Key to this line of thinking is John Cahill in the USA. I hope time will have a statement from him on HU 42 and it's replacement and that car's history. Maybe it is zinging round Laguna Seca or an autocross somewhere there.
At least that would eliminate that only large framed T 492 orange car built from the chase.

So close, but still so far.

I've used this symbol a lot on here ( ) about sums-up where I am, going round in circles.

It might have made financial sense for them to import an un-numbered tub, if they had already paid import duties on HU42 then sending it back to the UK and recieving a (repaired) replacement would have avoided paying twice on what was effectively the same car.
Whether they would have had to send the original tub (or car) back would depend on how much proof the tax people wanted - but if they did it would explain the tubs return to the UK (e.g. yours could be the original crashed tub).

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

It might have made financial sense for them to import an un-numbered tub, if they had already paid import duties on HU42 then sending it back to the UK and recieving a (repaired) replacement would have avoided paying twice on what was effectively the same car.
Whether they would have had to send the original tub (or car) back would depend on how much proof the tax people wanted - but if they did it would explain the tubs return to the UK (e.g. yours could be the original crashed tub).

Heaven knows the history of this car is already convoluted enough, but this may be a step too far. If as we have heard from 911thillclimber the original was burnt to such a degree that it required replacing, then far more than just the monocoque would have required replacement. The cost of sending the burnt wreck back to the UK would have been not inconsiderable, although it might have circumvented the import duties payable on a fresh export of the replacement for HU42, but what does that leave in the UK? The burnt-out wreck of a T492 with no chassis plate! That's gone back to the States on the replacement car, remember? As far as we know, Dennis acquired from the barn near Brighton an 'on the button' racer, which is far removed from a fire-damaged write-off.

Whilst we are on the subject of the barn car, I think I can shed some light on Den's friend Len's comment that the car had twin Webers on it. I think that the motor in the car may well have used the Ford cheat homologation twin downdraught Webers that the dodgy Group 1 RS2000s used- I think they were 44s, but can't remember the letters. I don't think they were IDAs or IDFs.

The reason I suspect this is that I think I know what became of the engine, which the Humberstones removed to fit the 420R. I may well even have worked on it!

The twin Webers, plus the F3-sized wheels and tyres,mean that the car could not have competed in an S2000 class. Hence I think it probably competed in the UK in the up to 2000cc class of the longer-distance sports car series that ran sometime in the early-to-mid 80s.

[911thillclimber]

In my conversations with the very helpful Dennis and Len both described what they saw, a good T 492 orange, Len adding that the engine was not a standard Pinto, but greater, prob twin carbs/more cc's.
Remember that this is the first time this car has come back into focus for them since Harry H bought it 27 years ago, memories are strained.

Len still works in the motorsport industry so is well tuned to these things and was very sure about this car. He has some other contacts to talk to yet.

With the Lola was the Clubmans and some FF chassis/bits, the owner wanted to sell as a job-lot.

Clive; what was the long distance series known as and where did it run? Nationally or 'locally'? I would guess you have already Googled it all ready!

Contacts in the USA are quiet, though I'm trying to get in touch with John Cahill still just to shed some facts into the story.(or to put a line through the HU 42 car)

This car was just 7 years old, maybe less when Dennis/Len bought it, so there cannot be too many other owners before Dennis? Three at most?

Enquiries on Lola Heritage have given nothing over the years, absolutely nothing, the Sports 2000 site almost nothing, two info sources I would expect to have the right people watching.

[Clive Brown]

The series was I believe run Nationally, if not even Internationally, and primarily on MCD circuits such as Brands and Oulton.

(i) Can you see from the H&S photographs whether the car had the covers in the leading face of the side sponsons of the monocoque when they received it?

(ii) When did they carry out the work to fit the KG bodywork?

(iii) How long was it between their returning the car to the Humberstones, and Alan debuting the car at Brands?

(iv) What is the history of the car between (ii) and (iii)?

[911thillclimber]

From the pics I have I have one where you can see the drivers side front pontoon and the inspection / access hole is not there.
On that side of the car the square panel is about 150mm x 100mm and is ribbed for stiffness, nicely made.

The body went on in 86 and took a year.(from A Humberstone conversation)
I believe the car raced at brands in 1990, Alan flying in from Spain to drive it I believe.

Vic Lee put the turbo engine in after the body done, so if Tony/John Sch finished in 87/88 then Lee doing the engine, then Alan driving it at Brands. About right I guess.

History between ii and iii is Lee doing the engine swop.

I was told that the turbo pipes were completed at Brian Davis'.

Could it be Lee fitted the engine at Brian D's place?

Those covers are strange.

[Clive Brown]

I think that the turbo pipes that were fitted at Brian Davis's place were fitted by John Sabourin to Brian's instructions, and were to fit the RS500 motor to the car. The turbo installation that apparently was started by Vic Lee and completed by Tony Baskerville was for the Mountune RS200 motor that the Humberstones had fitted to replace the Hart 420R.

[911thillclimber]

Right again Clive!
You can write the Autobiography of this little mystery when it's done!
Got mixed up with my turbo engines...

Had some feed-back from theUSA, not from John Cahill yet (on holiday somewhere hot) but from a friend of his who goes right back.

Here goes:

John C bought an Orange Lola T 492, one of the first 5 cars imported "in 77" and the chassis number was around the HU 20's. In fact HU22 was an Orange bodied car delivered to HAAS in early 78.(memories can loose a year or so)

This car was stolen and destroyed.

John ordered another orange car to replace it for the 79 season again from HAAS and Mark thinks that this could be the HU 42 car because of the colour being so unusual in s 2000 circles, the only Orange 492 racing in USA.
The engine was single carb Pinto as per rules of the day.

John raced this orange car for 1 maybe 2 years but not intensely before selling it.

Mark expects to get more info from John in due course.
Mark was also an S2000 racer, his dad had the famous HU21 currently for sale with a YB Cosworth carb engine.

Again, Mark suspects my car is HU 42, but no proof yet, time and colour all fit in.
If all this is right, then the HU42 was sold in about 80/81.

[Clive Brown]

So.... just supposing that John Cahill's first car was HU22, which was stolen, burnt out, and then replaced by HU42, the next key question would be that of how he disposed of the latter car.

If your car is HU42, we need to establish the route by which it passed from John Cahill to Dennis Humphries.

[911thillclimber]

Indeed.
The man helping me on the UK sports 2000 site has suggested the Holland/Scandinavia Lolas but none of them are Orange.
Holland Sweden took 15 x 492's between them, none orange.

This colour is key.
I've asked on Sport 2000 UK site if anyone remembers imports of 492's in the early 80's.
This must have been a rare thing to do?

My helper over there has been in motorsport with 492/FF since back in the time before the 85 purchase, and even lived in the Brighton area (!) and has NO recollection of an orange Lola or a dealer of cars.
He finds this strange as he was so close to the local motorsport community.

I can't help feeling this car has two sections missing;

1980 to 85 and post Tony/John Sch to Brian Davis.

The first because of the missing history and the second due to extra work on the tub post Tony /John.
I suppose the latter is of no real interest compared to the USA to UK bit if that is indeed part of this car's history.

[911thillclimber]

Just re-made the dash on the car tonight as it was a bit untidy.

The tub has water shields on the front lower wishbones, never seen thiese before on a standard 492.

They are well made with tight fitting sections and neat return edges, not some quick pop-rivit cover plate.

Would this point to an endurance racer 'theme' to the car to keep the tub quite water free on long race wet tracks?

[911thillclimber]

This car is still fighting me!

Ran the engine over the weekend only to find a big oil leak. Keen to fix it I got stuck in, but I thought you might be amused at my Sunday-in-the-Garage...

Following taken from another forum I'm on:


I hope this little tale will amuse you, but things just have to get done sometimes.

The engine in question is my 3.2 in my hillclimb engine.

NO OTHER engine or car has fought so hard to exist, to run or to be cheap.

After a rebuild by me the pistons/barrels etc all went together with the usual fight over the rings compressing and going together, but the lot was finished with great care.
The car went down to Bob Watson's for a tune-up (PMO carbs)
After an age by Bob on his rollers the ignition was changed for points and condenser, the carbs re-set and the power runs done with, huge improvement.

Spent the next few weeks getting the car to spec and thought on sunday it would be good for a 'dry' start and run to full temperature.
It started like any other Porsche on carbs, a bit awkward, but soon settled down to a nice steady tick-over.

While admiring my work smoke started to bellow from the front of the engine...oil was dripping/running down the 1/2/3 side of the engine's cam chain cover onto the race exhaust. Switch off and take a look.

The car was perfect on the rollers!
The oil was coming from between the back of the cam tower and the cam housing, ie where the cam is sealed between tower and housing...a silly paper gasket and oil seal O ring.

After swearing profusely at the bloody thing, I came over all matter of fact and decided that the O ring housing had to come out and the gasket fixed. That means removing the cam sprocket...that means re-timing the cam....engine out , down to Bob's etc etc.

I can do this!

Plugs out, TDC found, cover off and the horror of the job is revealed; just how to remove all the parts and get it back EXACTLY how it left Bobs? (I did the seal not Bob)
Having de-oiled everything I marked the chain to the sprocket, the drive pin to the cam adjuster 'sprocket', removed the tensioner, the sprocket itself, the drive pin was next using a magnetic probe along side the screw just incase it fell into the engine....(I have done that before), off with the sprocket.

The leaky O ring cover is revealed.. but the woodruf key in the cam has to come out to get the sprocket alignment shims out. A heart stopping few minutes as I prised it out, trusty magnetic probe resting against it, ouch! screwdriver slipped and where is the bloody key? Found in the rag blocking the opening down into the engine.

Cover off to find the paper gasket was torn, by me fitting it....

Clean it all up, apply some crankcase loctite and put the plate back on. This is easy!
Pop the shim pack on and then fit the key to the cam. No.

That key did NOT want to go back in AND allow the sprocket to go back on the cam. Got it half way on and thought a little tap with a small hammer will seat it down. Tappy tap and looking good, but not far enough on, then noticed the cam had jumped round against the valve springs and could not be rotated back. Bugga!

Got the flippin' sprocket back off (just) and with some care got it fully back on.

Right; time to get the chain sprocket back in place AND at the right timing point....

Slackened all the rockers off and the cam turned 75% of what was needed. # 2 inlet valve was stopping the last rotation, so out with the rocker! Just got it rotated back enough and danced with the chain, the sprocket, the cam wanting to rotate back and the light was fading fast...

You need to be an X File to get in there and with 4 hands.

After a lot of jiggling it went back in! Put the drive pin in, all my white marks aligned, great.

Tensioner back on, genade pin out and put the cover back on with a fresh spare gasket.
Stopped and stared for a while only to realise i had not tightened the cam sprocket bolt up...

Took the cover off again, 90 lbft later which is a hard job as the crank wants to go round in the same direction as the cam bolt....very odd sensation.

Back together again.

Re-fitted the rocker on #2 inlet, found TDC and set the valve clearances with the proper 4 thou tool/guage I bought from Automotion about 18 years ago! The exhaust one are the worst, but i still have all my knuckles intact.

Turned the engine over by hand a few revs to feel for anything obviously in the way, all is well.

The Good: All the plugs are the same colour, the first time I have seen this on this engine.
The bad was seeing the cam move out of position
The Ugly, that stupid torn paper gasket.

The Stupid Porsche Fanatic.

[MGDavid]

come on, just think how lucky you are; you could have been:
- visiting relos
- 'retail therapy' in Ikea or M&S or wherever they go
- decorating or DIY
- watching Ski Sunday
- sleeping off a hangover
- gardening
or a million and one more distasteful activities.

[spd(john)]

One day the story behind this thread will be complete, (I for one in a sick kind of way), Sorry Graham, hope it does not, it has kept us all captivated for so long now, and having been on the hills when Graham has had what seems to be more lows than highs, I think its time to mention his long suffering team manager/mechanic, his wife, who must be dreading the day he just Arrives & Drives, just think how she will feel.

The story must go on

John

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by spd(john)

One day the story behind this thread will be complete, (I for one in a sick kind of way), Sorry Graham, hope it does not, it has kept us all captivated for so long now, and having been on the hills when Graham has had what seems to be more lows than highs, I think its time to mention his long suffering team manager/mechanic, his wife, who must be dreading the day he just Arrives & Drives, just think how she will feel.

The story must go on

John

I think that is a fair comment. And from reading between the lines I think Graham will think so too.

[911thillclimber]

This is all about determination.
As SPD John know only too well my yellow 911 ran on the hill with me from 1991 to 2004 and I crashed it into a Shelsley Walsh tree that somehow jumped out in my way and back again, and another time a new clutch plate de-laminated.
Other than that it has been perfect, had 3 engines for more power and is driven on the road (it was a Road Going Class once)

A truly fab car that is sleeping next to the adopted child called Lola (and other more direct names). I feel I need one of those yellow squares people put in the rear screen, Beware: Child on board, but 'Beware a Lola is in the garage with its Grumpy driver/mechanic'.

My replacement car was a mild tuned Impreza with a little 350 bhp motor on slicks that was faster but dull (tbh) so that was sold to a friend who is going great guns in it.

That was replaced with the Lola.

I recon this car is cursed. Right from the start is has been a fight (of my own making with wanting a libre car that was unique.(a big mistake)
I should have installed a Pinto or Duratec with a Mk9 Hewland, just so easy.

Tracking down the chassis number? Bloody hell, harder still in some ways but not so critical.

I am (quite) convinced the chassis number is HU 42 for all the reasons recently discussed, but until Mark in the USA can find John Cahill I'm stuck.

Finding Dennis was easy, Clive did that for me(!), finding John in the USA is altogether a different kettle of fish.
Mark (off the USA Sport 2000 forum) is on my side so I hope we can talk to John soon.
The UK Sports 2000 forum is yielding nothing.
Seems nobody recalls an orange T 492 ever in the UK racing let alone in 79/85.

I hope this car was John's HU 42 492 that he sold to another who added parts for endurance racing (hence Dennis' advert details) and it came to the UK for the Thunder Sport Series but never raced (anywhere) but slept in the Brighton Barn until Dennis and Les bought it. Just 4 years history to unfold.

There are mods to the tub that Tony/John Sch did not do that were added later, but these changes are strange. Maybe Vic Lee or Brian did them?

Still a lot missing!

I will be retired, stopped racing, become a scrutineer etc when this is finally laid to rest.

Above all the little thread of a peculiar car has entertained many (a lot) and I enjoy the chase, but a finish in sight would be nice...

Thanks for the continued support!

[Andy Clegg]

Just a thought. There used to be a British C2 championship, when it first started I think other sports cars were invited to fill up the grids.